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thirteen
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09-30-2005, 02:23 PM
Post subject: Did i stay in this hand too long?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 235
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Hand Number: 229,016,272
Table Number: 2,944,550
Event Name: Sit & Go Table Korshak (#2074209)SNHB
Game: No Limit Hold 'em
Level V: 100/200 Blinds (25 Minimum Chip)
Average Stack: 5,000 (1,000 starting chips)
Remaining Players: 2 (10 started)
Seat 5 : kcknockuout starts with 7,025
Seat 6 : thirteen starts with 2,975
Seat 5 : kcknockuout has the dealer button
>>>DEALING HOLE CARDS<<<
thirteen dealt down Jc Kc
kcknockuout posts the small blind 100
thirteen posts the big blind 200
kcknockuout calls 100
thirteen checks
>>>DEALING FLOP<<< [ Ah 2h Js ]
thirteen bets 400
kcknockuout calls 400
>>>DEALING TURN<<< [ 7h ]
thirteen bets 1,200
kcknockuout calls 1,200
>>>DEALING RIVER<<< [ 6h ]
thirteen checks
kcknockuout bets 5,225 and is all-in
thirteen folds
kcknockuout takes back 5,225
kcknockuout cards were 8c Jh
kcknockuout wins 3,600
>>>SUMMARY<<<
Hand Ended: Thursday September 29th 8:06:12 PM CDT 2005
Total Pot: 3,600
Board: [ Ah 2h Js 7h 6h ]
Seat 5 : kcknockuout (small blind) bet 1,800, won 3,600, net +1,800, showed hand
[ 8c Jh ]
Seat 6 : thirteen (big blind) lost 1,800, folded on the river
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Khabbi
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 381
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The flop bet was good. You made a pot sized bet with a flush draw out there - he called it.
You were short stacked. I think you had to make a decision to either push/fold on the turn. I would have folded and waited for a better place to get my chips in. You still weren't out of it, but that turn bet pretty much committed you (or crippled you).
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PokerPatNEU
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 797
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It's hard to represent the A on the flop when you didn't raise pre flop heads up. That being said, unless your opponent has a monster he is slowplaying, i would not expect him to turn over an ace here. I'd expect most Ax hands to be raising from the button pre flop to either take your blind or at least build the pot with what is likely to be the best hand. Imo you should have raised KJ pre flop to show strength (KJ is a strong starting hand heads up) which would have allowed you to represent that ace better...If i'm villain, i'm probably playing it the same with 2nd pair heads up when an ace is on the flop and you showed no aggression pre flop. You would have been able to take the pot on the turn (if not the flop) if you had raised pre flop in my opinion. By the time the river comes 4 hearts, you have to get out.
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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After the bet on the flop you shouldn't have put anymore money in the pot.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Raise pre-flop. Bet the pot on the flop. Check/fold the turn - he has to have an ace or the flush, so either way you're in trouble.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dalecooper
Raise pre-flop. Bet the pot on the flop. Check/fold the turn - he has to have an ace or the flush, so either way you're in trouble.
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I agree. That's the better line, and would have won this for you, I think.
As said above, given that there was no raise preflop, I'm not worried about the A here. That means that you have the strongest pair we need to worry about, with the strongest kicker. Once the 4th flush card hits, you're done though.
Dale, is there any way we can rig it so your posts count toward my counter? You keep saying exactly what I want to say.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
Dale, is there any way we can rig it so your posts count toward my counter? You keep saying exactly what I want to say.
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It's no good Jeffrey, even if we share posts, 'rilla will still have 58,000 times as many.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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why do you guys want to raise preflop?
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
why do you guys want to raise preflop?
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You're playing heads up and you have a strong but vulnerable hand for heads up play. And you'll be out of position after the flop, so establish yourself as the aggressor and take it down quick.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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if he raises preflop, not only does he have to play it out of position, but he also is almost comitted to winning the pot because it will be more than half his stack if the villian calls.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
if he raises preflop, not only does he have to play it out of position, but he also is almost comitted to winning the pot because it will be more than half his stack if the villian calls.
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If he raises to 600 preflop, that's far from half his stack. If he were to the point that raising put half or more of his stack in, KJ is worth pushing preflop HU in my opinion. Of 169 hands that your opponent could have, you're behind 17 of them. You're a coinflip with another dozen. The remaining ~125 are behind you.
How does that not merit a raise, or a push if he were more short-stacked?
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
if he raises preflop, not only does he have to play it out of position, but he also is almost comitted to winning the pot because it will be more than half his stack if the villian calls.
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If he raises to 600 preflop, that's far from half his stack. |
"it" referred to the size of the pot if the villian called. so the pot would be 1200+antes, and that would be more than half his stack.
i might push preflop for the stated reasons, but raising preflop just to push the flop takes a better hand than KJo.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
"it" referred to the size of the pot if the villian called. so the pot would be 1200+antes, and that would be more than half his stack.
i might push preflop for the stated reasons, but raising preflop just to push the flop takes a better hand than KJo.
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You're not raising just to push the flop. You're raising because chances are you have the best hand. When you hit the flop, chances are even better that you have the best hand.
Exactly what hands are you willing to raise preflop headsup?
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
"it" referred to the size of the pot if the villian called. so the pot would be 1200+antes, and that would be more than half his stack.
i might push preflop for the stated reasons, but raising preflop just to push the flop takes a better hand than KJo.
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First of all, you seem to be making out that if the pot is half your stack or more, you're pot committed. I can't even begin to agree with that. If he raised to 600 and put not another cent into the pot, he'd have 2400 left and the villain would have around 8000, with a big blind of 200 (1/12th of his remaining chips)... which is not a great situation, but far from dire.
Second, raising pre-flop and pushing on the flop doesn't take a better hand than KJ. In heads up play this is a move, and a legitimate and strong one. You can do it with any two cards. Raise pre-flop and push the flop basically in the dark, hoping that your opponent didn't hit (or at least didn't hit hard); the majority of hold 'em hands do not connect with the flop, and some of the ones that do might just make bottom pair or a draw of some sort.
But I'm not even advocating raise-then-push on this hand; I think he has enough chips left that he can play aggressively but within the bounds of regular play. This ain't push-or-fold time. You can push at times for strategic reasons, but "I don't like to play KJ post-flop, and that pot sure is tasty-looking" isn't a good one.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
Exactly what hands are you willing to raise preflop headsup?
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i raise alot of hands on the button. raising out of position just gets you in trouble postflop.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dalecooper
...[Jeffrey's thoughts put more succinctly]...
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We totally need to chat sometime. You ever get on vent?
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
Exactly what hands are you willing to raise preflop headsup?
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i raise alot of hands on the button. raising out of position just gets you in trouble postflop. |
You can't be scared to play a strong hand out of position! There are two differences: You have slightly less information and you are first to act.
The first is a disadvantage. The second could actually be an advantage! You can set the tone for the hand, especially if you raised preflop.
Further, since the button simply called preflop, you do have information here, telling you that he probably doesn't have much.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
i raise alot of hands on the button. raising out of position just gets you in trouble postflop.
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With a good hand out of position, you shouldn't be afraid to play. The raise helps negate the positional disadvantage, for starters. He may surprise you and actually fold to that raise of 400. If he doesn't, there are lots of ways you can still win. 1, if you flop a jack or king, all your chips are going in the pot. 2, if you flop a straight draw, all your chips are going in the pot (probably). 3, if you have a garbagey flop, you can almost certainly bet him out unless he hit a lucky top pair. 4, even the times that you don't hit - most of those he will not have really hit, either. He will fold to your continuation bet a lot, whether or not you have anything. Sometimes I'll check-raise just to mix it up, again whether or not I have anything. If he's been raising my first bet a lot post-flop, I'll check to him and come over the top when he bets. There are so many ways to wrestle the power of his position away from him, and yet you sound like you're willing to concede the entire battle just because you're not on the button. I hope you're not waiting to flop a monster after a pre-flop check and then bust him... it might happen once every four heads up matches, if you're lucky (and they last long enough).
By the way - there's a lot of crap I say around here that you can take with a grain or a shaker of salt. I'm not a pro or anything like it, and I still have lots of questions myself about, oh, basically everything. But in the endgame, vs. the average online players you see in SnG's, I stand by my record. Out-chipped or no, I win about 80% of the time when I make the final two. I'm pretty sure I'm doing something right. Raising out of position has never yet hurt me; most of these fish are much too tight to be competitive heads up players. They will let me lean them into oblivion, and usually end up pushing all-in with QTo when I have them out-chipped 5:1.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dalecooper
...[Jeffrey's thoughts put more succinctly]...
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We totally need to chat sometime. You ever get on vent? |
What's vent? I guess the answer is no.  But sure, I'd be up for some discussion. I usually just use MSN or AOL messenger, or regular ol' e-mail.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
Exactly what hands are you willing to raise preflop headsup?
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i raise alot of hands on the button. raising out of position just gets you in trouble postflop. |
The first is a disadvantage. The second could actually be an advantage! You can set the tone for the hand, especially if you raised preflop. |
setting the tone of the hand is pretty straightforward when you are pot comitted, all he can do is push. pushing preflop is fine here and i might actually do it, but i'm definitely not raising preflop with KJo out of position with these stack sizes.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dalecooper
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
i raise alot of hands on the button. raising out of position just gets you in trouble postflop.
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Out-chipped or no, I win about 80% of the time when I make the final two. I'm pretty sure I'm doing something right. |
i'm pretty sure i've been doing something right too...i dont have my numbers for my SNGs on this computer, but i'd be glad to post them all if you wanted to turn this into a contest.
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