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deep in tourney- pushing as short stack

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Extremophile

10-31-2009, 09:27 PM Post subject: deep in tourney- pushing as short stack

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2008

Location: Stackton

Posts: 451

I don't know if I played these hands too passively. The Hand 1 and Hand 2 occured in succession and with the same villian. He was running 17/8. I don't know if I should have pushed any of them.

Hand 1

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 1.1 Tournament, 1250/2500 Blinds 250 Ante (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB (t56262)
UTG (t150065)
UTG+1 (t123039)
MP1 (t60766)
MP2 (t84540)
MP3 (t123790)
CO (t136856)
Hero (Button) (t54995)
SB (t62680)

Hero's M: 9.17

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9

, 9

3 folds, MP2 bets t10000, 5 folds

Total pot: t8500

Hand 2

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 1.1 Tournament, 1250/2500 Blinds 250 Ante (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB (t53512)
BB (t149815)
UTG (t122789)
UTG+1 (t60516)
MP1 (t90290)
MP2 (t123540)
MP3 (t136606)
Hero (CO) (t54745)
Button (t61180)

Hero's M: 9.12

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q

, A

1 fold, UTG+1 calls t2500, MP1 bets t10000, 7 folds

Total pot: t11000

Hand 3

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 1.1 Tournament, 2000/4000 Blinds 400 Ante (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP3 (t363995)
CO (t44181)
Button (t76210)
SB (t106875)
BB (t414919)
Hero (UTG) (t59790)
UTG+1 (t74849)
MP1 (t176089)
MP2 (t191299)

Hero's M: 6.23

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 4

, 4

push or fold?

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Ravageur

10-31-2009, 09:42 PM

#2 (permalink)

Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House

Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: Montreal, Canada

Posts: 1,242

imo the first two are shoves (2nd a bit closer than first) and the 3rd is a fold. First two you have f/e and can get called by worse and 3rd one even though your M is small you're utg and crushed a lot. I'm interested to see what actual MTT ppl think.

Family Cruise IMO

drmcboy

10-31-2009, 10:06 PM

#3 (permalink)

DrButtInski
Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 9,601

1/2 I would shove both quickly

hand 3 I would fold but shove isn't bad, chart says 66+

revolvingiris

11-02-2009, 02:28 AM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2008

Posts: 1,139

Yeah I think its pretty hard to make a good argument for folding 1 and 2. 3 is a fold, there are better spots for a 15bb stack.

fjuanl

11-02-2009, 05:04 AM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 2,446

what they said ^^

You often won't have much of an advantage if called in hands 1-2, but you'll sometimes get villain to fold preflop and increase your stack by 30% !!

99 is 54% vs a really tight range of 88+ AJo+ KQ

AQs is 50% vs the same range

sk8r_daniel

11-02-2009, 06:47 AM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2006

Posts: 330

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 55.046% 54.35% 00.70% 541597704 6972426.00 { 88+, ATs+, KJs+, AJo+ }
Hand 1: 44.954% 44.25% 00.70% 441018372 6972426.00 { 99

Looks like 99 is not a favourtie. But does the fold equity make up for it? It seems like he is never folding TT+, folding weak part of his range.

Ravageur

11-02-2009, 07:29 AM

#7 (permalink)

Official Montreal SwampRat
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Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: Montreal, Canada

Posts: 1,242

i think f/e DEF makes up for it because of how much shipping that pot PF does for your stack. The 99 shoves seems the easiest of the three because there are more combos of AK/AQ etc.. (though I guess there are more combos of 10s, jj, qq etc but whatever shove!) But yeah also in the AQ hand the guy is punishing a limper which generally means his range is a bit tighter whereas 99 is an open raise so more often air.

Family Cruise IMO

Penneywize

11-02-2009, 07:02 PM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 885

Penneywize will become famous soon enough

Quote:

Originally Posted by sk8r_daniel

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 55.046% 54.35% 00.70% 541597704 6972426.00 { 88+, ATs+, KJs+, AJo+ }
Hand 1: 44.954% 44.25% 00.70% 441018372 6972426.00 { 99

Looks like 99 is not a favourtie. But does the fold equity make up for it? It seems like he is never folding TT+, folding weak part of his range.

I'm not crazy about the range you set; ATs and KJs should not be calling here. But hey, it's a 1.1 tourney so anything's possible.

Penneywize

11-02-2009, 07:03 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 885

And yes, I push hands 1 and 2 without thinking much of it

Hand 3 is a quick fold UTG

Extremophile

11-02-2009, 07:25 PM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2008

Location: Stackton

Posts: 451

Aren't we pushing 1 and 2 regardless of the stakes we are playing and of excluding ATs and KJs?

How would you guys play these hands against a player running let's say 10/4? I don't know everyone thought about the stats because nobody mentioned about it.

Penneywize

11-02-2009, 07:32 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 885

Quote:

Originally Posted by Extremophile

1: Yes, I would think so anyway. Excluding ATs and KJs just makes our decision easier, and it is a fair assumption.

2: I'd be concerned about sample size first and foremost. Even if it was large enough, he could be getting desperate or just trying to capitalize on his tight image. Either way I think he is folding back often enough to justify our move.

Drmcboy or someone better than I should clarify imo

revolvingiris

11-03-2009, 12:45 AM

#12 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2008

Posts: 1,139

Quote:

Originally Posted by Extremophile

I think the type of player matters more than the stakes. Vs a 10/4 I would almost always fold the AQ situation if its over a decent # of hands. The 99 situation is just an open so this can be a little bit of a wider range. Plus you would have FE against that type of player so I think a shove would be fine.

exsentrik

11-18-2009, 01:04 AM

#13 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 93

Shove 1 and 2

Fold on 3 unless i have favourable reads and chip stacks are small.

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deep in tourney- pushing as short stack

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