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Comments: Common Beginner Pitfalls To Avoid

  
 
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ledfut
Old 08-10-2005, 01:59 PM     Post subject: Comments: Common Beginner Pitfalls To Avoid #1 (permalink)  
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{Comments on http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-16942.htm }


i'd like to add that you should pay attention to how people are building up their stacks. are they picking up pot after pot? or did they call an all-in with a draw only to hit their hand? just because someone has a large chipstack doesn't necessarily mean that they are a good player.
know the enemy and know yourself, and in 100 battles you will never be in peril.

know yourself but ignorant of the enemy, your chances of winning are half.

if ignorant of yourself and of your enemy and you will always be in danger.
 
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Staresy
Old 08-10-2005, 02:11 PM #2 (permalink)  
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time for Sherrif VQ ..... apologies ..... King Bitch Slappin' Master Pimp to stickify this methinks.
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dalecooper
Old 08-10-2005, 02:17 PM #3 (permalink)  
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I'd like to add one very specific tip that is becoming more useful all the time. It is this: a guy limps from early position, you raise in late position, and he re-raises (possibly going all in). This is not a bluff. It's the pre-flop version of a check-raise, and there's at least one player in every SnG who likes to do this with pocket kings or pocket aces. Now you know what he has - act accordingly.
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GixMage
Old 08-10-2005, 03:35 PM #4 (permalink)  

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A couple of things:

1) Pay attentionto the other players. Sounds simple and straight forward, but you need to know who limps with low pp, who chases with a flush draw or str8 draw, how far they will chase, what preflop raise is standard (is it 2-3X the bb for a tight table, is it 4-6X for a loose table, who folds to which bet, etc). Also, you NEED to know who bluffs and/or will call down with TPLK or worse (this should be your ATM).

2) Play tight early (and if you play, you are looking to win a big pot/double up. Risking chips for a 60 chip pot doesnt accomplish anything. Wait for a big hand and play it HARD!).

3) Play aggressive late (steal blinds, pick on the mid stack if chip leader, standard aggressive bubble play, etc)

4) Think through every decision. Couldnt tell you how many times when I started out my brain screamed "Raise me, huh? Lets see you call this!" only to lose to a monster because I WAY overvalued my hand and rushed to bet. Think it through.

Thats it for now, just my 2 cents.
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Toe
Old 08-10-2005, 03:37 PM #5 (permalink)  
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agreed dalecooper this happened to me a few times previously. A question I have is when is it a good time to make this play? limp a monster hand preflop hoping for a raise to which you can re-raise? whats the mimimum hand you would need to make this play? Or would you always raise preflop?
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a500lbgorilla
Old 08-10-2005, 03:40 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Don't waste chips. Every bet has a purpose, make sure you understand what that purpose is.

When you get a huge stack, don't immediatly start pushing the table around with JTo or Q9o. Take a few hands off, ops are much less likely to resteal if you take 5 hands off and pass on clear steal opportunities after getting that big stack.

When you're in the money, never settle. If its 5k, 4k and 1k stacks don't assume you need to gamble to get back in this. unless blinds are 250/500, you can try and find a spot where you're good to double through.

If you're on the bubble with a big stack and the second or third stack raise, push with any two. You'll feel like a rounder.

-'rilla

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Death_Kube_K
Old 08-10-2005, 03:50 PM #7 (permalink)  
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One other thing, with suited connectors: Watch yourself when you flop a flush when you are playing the low suited connectors and ocassionally you will flop two pair play these very fast and hard.

Also in late parts of a tourneys when you goto steal blinds REMEMBER THAT A 4x-5xBB WILL DO THE SAME THING AS AN ALL IN BET. To many begginers will go all in when it is not nessicerry and risk alot of there chips.

Also dont raise the blinds everytime on the button. In order to receive respect you must give respect... So if u want them to fold dont raise the blinds every single time!
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gabe
Old 08-10-2005, 03:54 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
When you get a huge stack, don't immediatly start pushing the table around with JTo or Q9o.
weeeak
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TLR
Old 08-10-2005, 03:58 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
a guy limps from early position, you raise in late position, and he re-raises (possibly going all in). This is not a bluff.
100% Correct.

Quote:
A question I have is when is it a good time to make this play?
As a rule of thumb I would say when you have AA or KK, the table has at least 7 players, and is pretty agressive (i.e. most of the pots are raised preflop) and you have the stack size to pull this move and still achieve isolation or buy the pot right there, which means that your reraise can be aggressive enough to really push people off.
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vqc
Old 08-10-2005, 04:16 PM #10 (permalink)  
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ripjohngotti
Old 08-16-2005, 12:49 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Yes agree i would also like to add

Hands like k/js a/10s etc i hardly play them early on or if theres raises oh i have pot odds with my pocket 4's cuz theres 4 people calling. Oh yeah ill call that one raise with the 7/8s cuz 3 other people are seeing the flop before u know it ur stack has been dwindled to nearly 1/2 of what it was. Limping with a/j calling raises cuz the pot is multi way. Pot odds are definately not worth it in SNGS.

Playing small pairs, suited connectors, k/js, a/10s a/js ill never raise with these hands early on even if tehrs a ton of limpers i may even fold but probably not a/js. I feel when u start playing tons of these "pot odd" medicore hands ur just burning chips i feel in SNGS u gotta play much tight early on sure maybe when its done to 5 maybe 6 and im on button or possible cutoff ill raise with the a/j but ill definately enver raise with k/10 k/j etc on the button i might just limp in. SNG's definately seem to be avoiding tough situations earlier on. Multi tables are completed different ur gonna have to build a stack because of the MTT..

Just my 2 cents (Don't burn up tons of chips because u had pot odds, avoid draws, play tight)


I switch it up with the jacks sometimes il raise with em early sometimes i wont. Probably 70ish 80ish percent of the time i will....
30%


Still looking for my royal flush.
 
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drmcboy
Old 08-16-2005, 03:33 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Pot odds are definately not worth it in SNGS.


where is that dragon?
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Staresy
Old 08-16-2005, 08:31 AM #13 (permalink)  
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greyishhue
Old 08-16-2005, 12:05 PM #14 (permalink)  
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One thing I would add, it is ok to limp with suited connectors or 10 10, JJ and try and hit your cards. If you don't or someone raises then it is easy to escape the hand early in the SnG. However, one thing I see people doing constantly is limping in or only raising 2xBB with big hands pre flop. If you are going to bet into a pot pre flop make sure you make the appropriate raise and make that your consistent bet ie 4xBB regardless of what you have. If your table image is tight and you are trying to steal the blinds mid to late SnG, there is no point in making a mini raise when you have previously been raising 4xBB with big cards that people have seen at the showdown. Tight passive players are the easiest to read because they are to damn scared to lose their chips so make stupid mini bet raises.
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Eric
Old 08-19-2005, 10:08 PM #15 (permalink)  
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TLR,

Thanks for helping beginners out with this post. I added it to our html tournament strategy section on the http://www.flopturnriver.com/Sit-n-G...-Pitfalls.html page.
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Fnord
Old 08-19-2005, 10:16 PM     Post subject: Re: Common Beginner pitfalls to avoid #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLR
1. AJ, AT, KJ - Most beginners tend to overvalue those hands....
Add KQ. Stupid KQ calls for insane amounts of chips are all the rage these days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TLR
2. Suited connectors are for flushes or str8s - I believe that limping with suited connectors is a profitable move in Sngs - assuming you remember why you play them!
The best play is to raise it up in an unraised pot then steal the flop. They will often give you credit if big cards flop and won't see it comming if you catch a monster or strong draw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TLR
6. Slowplay monsters only at early stages - And by monster I mean a boat, a nut flush or a set on a very uncoordinated board.
In most low-limit games people call too much to ever slow-play. It also tends to table your hand against thinking players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TLR
9. pot odds are less important then stack size - In ring games pot odds is king. In Sng your stack size matters much more. It is way too easy too blead half your stack on chasing hands that you had pot odds to call ,and then have a short stack and having the entire table picking on you trying to knock you out.
....and stack/blind sizes are more important than cards.
 
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PokerPatNEU
Old 08-19-2005, 10:36 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
If you're on the bubble with a big stack and the second or third stack raise, push with any two. You'll feel like a rounder.

-'rilla
Lets say with 4 people left, you're the big stack with 5k, 2nd and 3rd are close at around 3k, and 4th has 1k....You would push to an 800-ish pre flop raise with any two here? My bubble play is a little weak, i dont make any huge adjustments when it gets down to 4, but i gotta think if the guy is willing to risk 1/4th of his stack he's willing to come AI with it? Especially knowing that big stacks like to make this move on the bubble.

I guess the real good piece of advice i got from this is not to raise at all PF without AA/KK on the bubble if you're not a big stack.
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WhooFleuryScores
Old 08-25-2005, 12:54 AM     Post subject: Don't play AJo #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Limping with a/j calling raises cuz the pot is multi way.
I can speak from experience with that.Late in a MTT bubble play I get AJo and limp behind 2 others.Blind raises we all call(why? I dunno).

Flop brings my Ace.I decide to make a move and push all in;guy would have to commit a third of his chips,and possibly call a third all in.He pauses and calls.EP folds,limper before me calls.We show:

Limper before me had AQo HE LIMPED WITH AQo LATE in a tourney shortstacked.Blind shows A9o???????? Surfice to say AQo triples up thanks to his stupidity,I collect the sidepot and am down to 4x the BB.Next hand I get K10 off and push(blinds will coming to me).I get 4 callers yet totally miss my overs and lose to ACE FREAKING HIGH who bluffed off the flop too???????????

So yeah moral of the story is watch out for AJo or kiss your buyin bye bye.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 08-25-2005, 02:06 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerPatNEU
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
If you're on the bubble with a big stack and the second or third stack raise, push with any two. You'll feel like a rounder.

-'rilla
Lets say with 4 people left, you're the big stack with 5k, 2nd and 3rd are close at around 3k, and 4th has 1k....You would push to an 800-ish pre flop raise with any two here? My bubble play is a little weak, i dont make any huge adjustments when it gets down to 4, but i gotta think if the guy is willing to risk 1/4th of his stack he's willing to come AI with it? Especially knowing that big stacks like to make this move on the bubble.

I guess the real good piece of advice i got from this is not to raise at all PF without AA/KK on the bubble if you're not a big stack.
Yup, push and type "You don't wanna bust before that shorty do you?"

Though you should definitly be raising as a shorter stack with hands weaker than AA/KK becuase chips are gold. Not every big stack will will his chips over you every hand.

-'rilla

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Blinky
Old 09-27-2005, 11:14 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
1. AJ, AT, KJ - Most beginners tend to overvalue those hands.
Thought I'd add a bit to this as I totally agree. As a newbie's rule of thumb, any hand where your lowest card is a J is weaker than you think it is (and yes, this includes JJ). I have seen stupid calls and raises with QJ, hand which I have learned to hate.

The J is tempting cuz it's paint. It's worth remembering though that it's the weakest paint there is... and as another has said, treat JJ as the highest medium pocket pair.
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bair
Old 09-28-2005, 02:52 AM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLR
Quote:
a guy limps from early position, you raise in late position, and he re-raises (possibly going all in). This is not a bluff.
100% Correct.
I've bluffed several times by using this method to represent aces and gotten players to fold hands like AK, QQ, JJ etc. Also several players will make this move with low pocket pairs, since typical preflop strategy is to limp with these hands and call moderate raises, they will often reraise AI to take down the pot immediately, and if they dont then be in a race situation more often than not.
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aislephive
Old 11-10-2005, 12:57 AM #22 (permalink)  
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Here's a couple of things I think begginers need to avoid.

1. Don't get married to top pair, and you should only be in the hand if you're confident in your kicker. I fold top pair middle kicker to any aggression on the flop early on.

2. Play tight early on, and tight for the most part. SNG's reward consistentcy, so just making second or third place is enough to be very profitable, although first place is always nice. I rarely get knocked out early because I'm barely involved. When the blinds get to the 25-50 level I start to loosen up and 50-100 is where I start stealing. I'm always looking for a spot to double up in the mid stages, but I want to be almost certain I'm a favorite or at worst a coinflip. If my hand holds up I have chips and raise at will from there on out.

3. Never give up. Early in my last SNG I kept betting and this guy called me down with AK and no pair, all the money was in on the turn and I had pocket jacks (overpair), he hit an ace on the river and I was knocked down to 150 chips. I ended up all in three way with ATs. I hit my straight on the turn and a flush on the river and tripled up. I kept chopping away and eventually took the chip lead. I finished second overall, but I never gave up and that was key.

4. Don't overvalue hands like QJ or KJ, or even KQ. These are trouble hands that are often dominated. If it's folded to me in LP or if we're shorthanded I'll raise, but other than that I tend to toss it away.
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ChezJ
Old 12-20-2005, 08:05 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aislephive
Here's a couple of things I think begginers need to avoid.

3. Never give up.
YES! I have come back into the money from DEAD LAST so many times that it is incredible. Just bang away and be smart (e.g. make huge laydowns on the bubble), and you will make often it.

ChezJ
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mpc2323
Old 12-23-2005, 03:33 PM #24 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalecooper
I'd like to add one very specific tip that is becoming more useful all the time. It is this: a guy limps from early position, you raise in late position, and he re-raises (possibly going all in). This is not a bluff. It's the pre-flop version of a check-raise, and there's at least one player in every SnG who likes to do this with pocket kings or pocket aces. Now you know what he has - act accordingly.

I used to do this early in sng but lately been getting multi limper and no raiser and its a sick feeling when u dont get raised!!!
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johnnyBuz
Old 01-01-2006, 08:47 AM     Post subject: Re: Common Beginner pitfalls to avoid #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLR
8. Dont minbet at early stages- It accomplishes nothing - You will not scare anybody with a minbet when the minbet is 1/50 of their stack. If you think you should bet do it agressively.
Most SnG's I play at PartyPoker ($10+1), there is rarely more then 4-5 players in a pot preflop even if nobody raises. Therefore, if you have a hand like AJ, say the blinds are still at 10/15, isn't raising to 45 considered a value bet? I do this somewhat often because I like to build the pot for cheap, attract 3 callers, and then play it from the flop. I find this to be a much better strategy then betting 90-120 preflop, missing the flop completely, and then having lost more then 1/8 of my stack already.

Am i missing out on the bigger concept? Because to me, it seems like value betting allows me to see 3x as many flops in the early stages of the game, where it is critical that I start building up an extra 200-300 chips so that when a few people are knocked out, I'm not on the lower end of the table coming into the homestretch. >6

Let me know what you think of the strategy.
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TLR
Old 01-01-2006, 08:56 AM #26 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLR
8. Dont minbet at early stages- It accomplishes nothing - You will not scare anybody with a minbet when the minbet is 1/50 of their stack. If you think you should bet do it agressively.
Most SnG's I play at PartyPoker ($10+1), there is rarely more then 4-5 players in a pot preflop even if nobody raises. Therefore, if you have a hand like AJ, say the blinds are still at 10/15, isn't raising to 45 considered a value bet? I do this somewhat often because I like to build the pot for cheap, attract 3 callers, and then play it from the flop. I find this to be a much better strategy then betting 90-120 preflop, missing the flop completely, and then having lost more then 1/8 of my stack already.

Am i missing out on the bigger concept? Because to me, it seems like value betting allows me to see 3x as many flops in the early stages of the game, where it is critical that I start building up an extra 200-300 chips so that when a few people are knocked out, I'm not on the lower end of the table coming into the homestretch. >6

Let me know what you think of the strategy.
Minbet meaning raising the minimum, so if the blinds are 10/15 minbet will be raising by 15 to 30.
I dont play at PP, but usually raising to 3BB is usually enough to fold the total crap.

Regarding value betting I never consider preflop raise as 'value bet', since it is too early in the hand to decide if it is indeed value bet.

The three main reasons to raise preflop are
1. Narrow the field
2. Steal the blinds
3. Build the pot

In NL game the first two are much more important then the 3rd.


 
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Pingviini
Old 01-01-2006, 12:34 PM #27 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Regarding value betting I never consider preflop raise as 'value bet', since it is too early in the hand to decide if it is indeed value bet.

The three main reasons to raise preflop are
1. Narrow the field
2. Steal the blinds
3. Build the pot

In NL game the first two are much more important then the 3rd.
PFR with AA is a value bet, no? I think of it as one and want to get some money in PF, lots of old timers are saying that you should get as much as possible in the pot PF with AA. I tend to disagree if it reveals your hand, especially in ring where money is deep and disguising your hand is often worth more in the long run. In sng's that changes depending on the blind levels.

with low blind levels and a strong hand (AA/KK/QQ) you do also want to build a pot because blinds are pretty much worthless.
"Poker is a simple math game" -Aba20
 
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Muxy
Old 01-01-2006, 07:54 PM #28 (permalink)  
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I never looked at this thread before. This is some great low SNG advice.
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vqc
Old 01-01-2006, 10:11 PM     Post subject: Re: Common Beginner pitfalls to avoid #29 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLR
8. Dont minbet at early stages- It accomplishes nothing - You will not scare anybody with a minbet when the minbet is 1/50 of their stack. If you think you should bet do it agressively.
Most SnG's I play at PartyPoker ($10+1), there is rarely more then 4-5 players in a pot preflop even if nobody raises. Therefore, if you have a hand like AJ, say the blinds are still at 10/15, isn't raising to 45 considered a value bet? I do this somewhat often because I like to build the pot for cheap, attract 3 callers, and then play it from the flop. I find this to be a much better strategy then betting 90-120 preflop, missing the flop completely, and then having lost more then 1/8 of my stack already.

Am i missing out on the bigger concept? Because to me, it seems like value betting allows me to see 3x as many flops in the early stages of the game, where it is critical that I start building up an extra 200-300 chips so that when a few people are knocked out, I'm not on the lower end of the table coming into the homestretch. >6

Let me know what you think of the strategy.
dont play AJ at 10/15 at PP.
problem fixed.
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johnnyBuz
Old 01-02-2006, 05:50 AM     Post subject: Re: Common Beginner pitfalls to avoid #30 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vqc
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLR
8. Dont minbet at early stages- It accomplishes nothing - You will not scare anybody with a minbet when the minbet is 1/50 of their stack. If you think you should bet do it agressively.
Most SnG's I play at PartyPoker ($10+1), there is rarely more then 4-5 players in a pot preflop even if nobody raises. Therefore, if you have a hand like AJ, say the blinds are still at 10/15, isn't raising to 45 considered a value bet? I do this somewhat often because I like to build the pot for cheap, attract 3 callers, and then play it from the flop. I find this to be a much better strategy then betting 90-120 preflop, missing the flop completely, and then having lost more then 1/8 of my stack already.

Am i missing out on the bigger concept? Because to me, it seems like value betting allows me to see 3x as many flops in the early stages of the game, where it is critical that I start building up an extra 200-300 chips so that when a few people are knocked out, I'm not on the lower end of the table coming into the homestretch. >6

Let me know what you think of the strategy.
dont play AJ at 10/15 at PP.
problem fixed.
I don't see the point in not playing AJ at 10/15. It's not like I ever go all-in with them or risk my stack.
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cardsman1992
Old 01-02-2006, 06:13 PM #31 (permalink)  
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I can definitely vouch for losing a LOT of chips with KQ, QJ, KJ. The flop misses, I c-bet, someone calls me down with middle or top pair when I don't catch my hand and can't push him off his. Or if I try to push him off his, and he catches me.

This is a glaring leak in my SNG game (trying to push people off pots with marginal hands). What is a more telling sign that you are beat, a rereaise on the flop/turn, or a call? And if I get to the river and face a reraise, I seem to hate to lay the hand down for the fear of appearing weak and vulnerable to being pushed off my own hand. As a matter of fact, I folded to a reraise one time and told the guy nice bet, and he said, "it was easy...you had nothing". Which I did, but apparently I was too easy to read....I feel I play relatively well preflop, but postflop my play needs a lot of work. My best (and it seems only) move in these things is to rep an Ace and push people off hands.....

PS I play $5.50s at Pokerroom currently and do not have my own computer, so I can't download PokerTracker (which probably won't help me in an SNG anyway....).
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vqc
Old 01-02-2006, 07:47 PM     Post subject: Re: Common Beginner pitfalls to avoid #32 (permalink)  
Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,427
vqc
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
Quote:
Originally Posted by vqc
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLR
8. Dont minbet at early stages- It accomplishes nothing - You will not scare anybody with a minbet when the minbet is 1/50 of their stack. If you think you should bet do it agressively.
Most SnG's I play at PartyPoker ($10+1), there is rarely more then 4-5 players in a pot preflop even if nobody raises. Therefore, if you have a hand like AJ, say the blinds are still at 10/15, isn't raising to 45 considered a value bet? I do this somewhat often because I like to build the pot for cheap, attract 3 callers, and then play it from the flop. I find this to be a much better strategy then betting 90-120 preflop, missing the flop completely, and then having lost more then 1/8 of my stack already.

Am i missing out on the bigger concept? Because to me, it seems like value betting allows me to see 3x as many flops in the early stages of the game, where it is critical that I start building up an extra 200-300 chips so that when a few people are knocked out, I'm not on the lower end of the table coming into the homestretch. >6

Let me know what you think of the strategy.
dont play AJ at 10/15 at PP.
problem fixed.
I don't see the point in not playing AJ at 10/15. It's not like I ever go all-in with them or risk my stack.
at a PP SNG, when u raise and cbet, or hit top pair and like it enough to take it to the end, u are risking future FE with watever chips u use, and its not really worth it. Just my opinion tho. Take it for wat its worth.
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xX zorrito Xx
Old 04-14-2006, 08:48 PM #33 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalecooper
I'd like to add one very specific tip that is becoming more useful all the time. It is this: a guy limps from early position, you raise in late position, and he re-raises (possibly going all in). This is not a bluff. It's the pre-flop version of a check-raise, and there's at least one player in every SnG who likes to do this with pocket kings or pocket aces. Now you know what he has - act accordingly.
this is kinda of a given... i told everyone to fold cause that's what he had and some loser called him with J J... sure enough he had aces...
 
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ChristheRock42
Old 05-18-2006, 07:02 PM #34 (permalink)  

Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3
ChristheRock42
Wow these are some great tips. A newbie like me will learn a lot...
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dynodonna
Old 05-18-2009, 02:58 AM     Post subject: sit n go tourney tactics #35 (permalink)  
High Card

Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 5
dynodonna
Wow there is some great information here for those who are new as well as those of us that have been playing awhile (like 3 years now) and i got alot out of it and plan on reading the rest of the articles you guys put in here if I can learn to navigate around this site and find the other articles - I am a bit computer challenged I am afraid. But thanks for the words of wisdom and different ones giving their take on the sit n go strategies.
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alen519
Old 05-20-2009, 03:51 AM #36 (permalink)  
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lol~~~~~~~~~~~
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pokerhouse2
Old 06-09-2009, 02:19 PM     Post subject: Bet Sizes #37 (permalink)  

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4
pokerhouse2
Someone may have already touched on this, but I also wanted to mention that sizes your bets, particularily pre-flop, plays a key role in disguising your intentions in a sitngo. This becomes more important toward the end of the game when the good players are hanging on and you are starting to "track eachother's moves". When you raise pre-flop, you should raise the same percentage every time. This may mean you have to pre-flop raise 120 on AK and then do the same sometimes on a 3 8, but in the long run it pays off and you learn 2 important things about the table while doing it. 1 Who plays loose vs tight? 2. What relative hand strengths am I playing against this hand?
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