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Sprayed

03-17-2006, 06:04 PM Post subject: Comments: char's thoughts on the true value of AK

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{Discuss: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-31191.htm }

Well said. I lay down AK every time when I see someone reraise the initial raiser. You have to think before you act with every hand that you play. Some people see AK and all of their chips are in no matter what. Nice post chard!

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SuperDave9x19

03-17-2006, 06:31 PM

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I agree 100%.

But I love it in others' hands when people do the standard "Well no one is raising on that weak flop so I am going to bet" bet. Cause after flop when I have 2nd pair (and whole flop is weak) i often limp to bring out this kinda bet.

Been playing money poker for 34 years and decided in 2002 to try that TX Holdem game on TV. Then found Pokerstars in Summer 2005. Still not an overall winner but i am on a good trend and nearly there.

ProZachNation

03-17-2006, 08:54 PM

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Thanks man, you post helped me take down 1st in a SnG yesterday. Versus one raiser I used to play my AK weak. I reraised him and took down a nice pot preflop which gave me enough chips to start bullying some people around. Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrhappy333

I didn't think its Bold to bang some chick with my bro. but i guess so... thats +EV in my book.

chardrian

03-17-2006, 09:00 PM

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Posts like that make my day. Ty - and congrats.

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Laeelin

03-17-2006, 11:51 PM

#5 (permalink)

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well said.... great post...

sticky here or in beginners circle? ;P

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shysti

03-18-2006, 12:41 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Nice post

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bantam222

03-18-2006, 06:28 AM

#7 (permalink)

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wow, great post.

Great point about how many people will see AK and insta-all in

JeffreyGB

03-18-2006, 07:51 AM Post subject: Re: char's thoughts on the true value of AK

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Quote:

Originally Posted by chardrian

4) You raise and get reraised. Again, unless you can actually put your opp on AA or KK, the general answer here is just to push (general because a call may be in order if you are super deepstacked and are pretty confidnt your opp has a pp QQ-, but it is worth the 1/3 shot to hit a flop). This because you now have the odds to push with all the dead money in the pot.

I agree with most of the post...this one item is a bit iffy to me though.

What hands is someone reraising you with? Typically, there are six or fewer hands: AA, KK, AK, QQ, JJ, and TT. In a vast majority of situations when you're past the first hour and playing against a stack large enough to make it questionable, you can rule out JJ and TT in that situation, but for arguments sake, let's leave them in. You're flipping to three of those hands, splitting with one, 30% to win against KK, and < 20% to win against AA. I think it's usually far more likely that a reraise means AA-QQ than JJ/TT, so at the very least, we have to weight the argument in that direction. Against that range, your hand fairs very poorly. So what other hands are you adding in to the range to make a push a good play?

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chardrian

03-18-2006, 08:12 AM

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Fair nuff - a lot of pushing against a reraise depends on your two respective stack sizes.

I'm just saying in that situation you are often getting 2 to 1 odds to push. And AK almost always gives you 2 to 1.

But if your range really is as tight as QQ-AA/AK then of course you know I agree that a fold is in order.

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JeffreyGB

03-18-2006, 10:17 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by chardrian

I agree that stack sizes impact a lot. But neglecting stack sizes as a reason to call (since you said in the post that you were ignoring all those factors), what makes pushing against the reraise your play here? Folding Equity is one good argument, (i.e. that JJ might fold to your push), but what range do you grant to make AK a +EV push here if you're getting called (as in my experience is usually the case when playing back to a reraise)?

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chardrian

03-18-2006, 07:13 PM

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I don't have poker stove available right now to give you an exact answer. But it seems to me that with a raise and a reraise in front of you, AK is gonna be +EV against TT+/AK. The reason is I think you are facing TT-QQ here way way more often than you are AA/KK (you just remember those more). With that dead money in the pot, pushing is almost always gonna be +EV.

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JeffreyGB

03-18-2006, 07:24 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by chardrian

The reason is I think you are facing TT-QQ here way way more often than you are AA/KK

That's where we disagree. I think it's much more likely that you're facing AA/KK than JJ/TT.

As far as pokerstove goes...
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 40.3923 % 27.16% 13.23% { AcKd }
Hand 2: 59.6077 % 46.38% 13.23% { TT+, AKs, AKo }

If you don't have a lot invested, I'm staying out of the bad end of a 40/60 personally. If you disagree, the numbers are similar against QQ+:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 38.8244 % 18.14% 20.68% { AKo }
Hand 2: 61.1756 % 40.50% 20.68% { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

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chardrian

03-18-2006, 09:14 PM

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I think we are getting down to the really nitty gritty here, which is fine. Basically, the point we are talking about now comes down to reads. If you think AA/KK is more likely than any other pair - you fold.

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supermoneyz1

03-18-2006, 09:58 PM

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I will tell you ahead of time this post is based on to many generalizations. Since poker is situational, you’re failure to mention exact stack sizes and blinds made this post difficult for me to finish reading.

Quote:

3) If there is one raiser in front of you - online the answer is to ALWAYS re-raise. The reason is because you simply cannot put someone on AA or KK online –

You’re failure to mention stack sizes and blinds makes this point hard for me to argue.. Surely, if your opponents range is A10+ 55+ then a re-raise OOP is acceptable. Yet, you’re game will be to coin flip dependant by following this general rule. Remember MTT’s are not won by winning countless coin flips.

Quote:

and you might get a fold out of a hand as good as JJ by re-raising.

Uh… What site do you play on? Personally, I can not think of many players that are willing to fold Tens or Jacks without a read online.

Quote:

unless you have such a huge stack that you can take the hit or you are so small that you need to risk your tourney life on the chance to triple up.

Whether or not I have a huge stack or small stack is irrelevant in my decision process. If I think I am most likely ahead I am going to call, if not I will fold.

Quote:

Ok so that's it. In sum, AK is undeniably a great hand. But treating it like AA or KK will hurt you in the long run.

From what you have written, (“ALWAYS re-raise a raise preflop”), you are treating AKo exactly like AA and KK.

Laeelin

03-19-2006, 12:17 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by supermoneyz1

Poker is situational, but there are still many many general ideas and theory that apply to a great deal of poker, and AK is one of thoes things for sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by supermoneyz1

Quote:

3) If there is one raiser in front of you - online the answer is to ALWAYS re-raise. The reason is because you simply cannot put someone on AA or KK online –

Your not after coinflips, your after folds. your probally right at 50/50 on the coinflip hands that you will win, but you end up way ahead because of people folding. Thats why this move is so powerful and useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by supermoneyz1

Quote:

and you might get a fold out of a hand as good as JJ by re-raising.

Uh… What site do you play on? Personally, I can not think of many players that are willing to fold Tens or Jacks without a read online.

Not sure where your playing, but that sure isnt my experence... sure some dont fold with basically anything (and you should know who the total fish are) but thoes are the same people that will call you with AJ, AQ, and KQ... People like to say that online players dont fold, but thats just not anywhere near an accurate generalization... I know my pushes are called a lot more often with AA/KK than QQ/JJ (and I should be seeing alot more QQ/JJ than AA/KK because i'm holding an ace and king)

Quote:

Originally Posted by supermoneyz1

Quote:

unless you have such a huge stack that you can take the hit or you are so small that you need to risk your tourney life on the chance to triple up.

Whether or not I have a huge stack or small stack is irrelevant in my decision process. If I think I am most likely ahead I am going to call, if not I will fold.

hmm, there should be a lot more involved in that decision. I'll fold what i think is the better half of a 60/40 in a heartbeat if chipstacks tell me to... (aka, i'm second in chips and butting heads with the chipleader...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by supermoneyz1

Quote:

Ok so that's it. In sum, AK is undeniably a great hand. But treating it like AA or KK will hurt you in the long run.

From what you have written, (“ALWAYS re-raise a raise preflop”), you are treating AKo exactly like AA and KK.

No he isnt... I dont see him talking about CALLING with AK .. I think you totally missed the point of the post...

AK's value is mostly in it's fold equidy

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JeffreyGB

03-19-2006, 12:23 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Laeelin

AK's value is mostly in it's fold equidy

Quite true. Way to sum it up.

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chardrian

03-19-2006, 02:06 AM

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I'll let Laelin speak for me here - I concur.

I appreciate all the comments tho. Really this post was meant for more of the beginners. I take other factors into consideration; reads, stack size, blinds relative to stacks, position, etc. This was a really general post trying to detail why AK is valuable (tons of fold equity) but also trying to explain to those who are overvaluing it that folding AK is the correct option many times preflop. One of those times would also include when you raise and get reraised depending on your read; chip stacks, blind levels, etc.

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supermoneyz1

03-19-2006, 03:52 AM

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Quote:

Poker is situational, but there are still many many general ideas and theory that apply to a great deal of poker, and AK is one of thoes things for sure.

Wow thanks for the great evidence. Unfortunately, AK is not something that is not situational like you are suggesting. Failure to account for position, stack size, blinds, etc. and trying to summarize how to play a hand with simple guidelines is just flat out wrong.

Here is a link regarding AK.
http://www.checkraised.com/site/arti..._show.php?a=41
(notice the structure of the guide, is a bunch of hand history's SINCE AK is NOT A GENERAL IDEA)

"Notice the attention to stack sizes and position. You cannot summarize how to play with AK early in a sit and go in just one or two sentences. However I see a lot of players trying to do so on poker strategy messageboards. There are just too many factors that have to be given attention, and sometimes a small detail will change the way you should play the hand. "
^^^ From the link/guide.

Quote:

Did you read to exactly what I was responding to?..Obviously theres more involved into the decision process. My point was that just because I have a big stack or small stack, I will not let that affect my involvement in whether or not I will play the hand WHEN RESPONDING TO A RAISE AND RERAISE.

Quote:

3) If there is one raiser in front of you - online the answer is to ALWAYS reraise. The reason is because you simply cannot put someone on AA or KK online - and you might get a fold out of a hand as good as JJ by reraising.

My main problem is with this part of the guide. Advice like this is poision. So many factors you're ignoring in this broad generilzation. Give me a break Laeelin/Chard. have you guys never just flat out called a raise with AK???

Quote:

I think you totally missed the point of the post...

Shhh

chardrian

03-19-2006, 04:32 AM

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You didn't read my replies.

I am agreeing with you.

There's no need to make this into a flamewar when I am agreeing with you. Yes we have both flat called AK.

The advice was meant as quick advice for beginners. Never meant for the post to be a "how to" guide.

Thanks for your correct criticisms tho.

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supermoneyz1

03-19-2006, 05:04 AM

#20 (permalink)

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Chard the long response was directed towards Laeelin who wrote

Quote:

I think you totally missed the point of the post...

If you do not want to fix some of your statements that I suggested and clean this up a bit then so be it.

Laeelin

03-19-2006, 08:05 AM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Failure to account for position, stack size, blinds, etc. and trying to summarize how to play a hand with simple guidelines is just flat out wrong.

He didnt just give simple guidelines... That would be useless... he explained why/how AK is so powerfull, and why/how it's weak. There are probally about 500 words in the post before talking about how to play it... I dont see how "You cannot summarize how to play with AK early in a sit and go in just one or two sentences" even comes close to relateing...

Quote:

My point was that just because I have a big stack or small stack, I will not let that affect my involvement in whether or not I will play the hand WHEN RESPONDING TO A RAISE AND RERAISE.

What you actually said was:

Quote:

Whether or not I have a huge stack or small stack is irrelevant in my decision process.

When in a MTT/SnG stack size is critical in almost every decision... Even if you someone know that your against 72o, your AK it's still not always right to call/push... Stack size is always VERY important...

-----------

Anyway...

I dont know about you (but I suspect your like me in this) but I could probally write 500 pages on AK and how to play it... heh, I could probally write that much about almost every 2 I normally play, and another 1000 about why/when i'm willing to play junk hands...

But I think that was a VERY good basic AK guide.

Everything in poker can be answered with "it depends" even the question: "Do I ever fold AA preflop?" is really an "it depends"

It sounds like your just directly reading the guidelines without reading the critical information above them... If you take the guide out of contex and just follow that, sure, it's not going to be near as helpful... but if you read what is said, then you will know the WHY of each guideline, and that will enable you to understand when to NOT follow the guide

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Sprayed

03-19-2006, 03:41 PM

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It seems like new members here lately are quick to bash and hate. I think that if you have constructive criticism you need to site the good and then explain why there maybe some bad points. When you use phrases like "your failure to mention" or "made it hard to continue reading" or words that are spiteful and degrading are not needed. I have no problem with people finding errors or problems with other's suggestions and guides. Just do your flaming in a more tasteful manner. A good example is JefferyGB's comments.

chardrian

03-19-2006, 05:29 PM

#23 (permalink)

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I actually just edited my post. Funny thing is, I edited it based on JGB's suggestions.

After re-reading what super said, I stand by my #3 - which is to always re-raise AK preflop against one raise in front of you. I have never, ever, been able to put my opp on AA or KK based just on one preflop raise. And I don't think I ever will be that "good." Because of AK's fold equity, raising in this situation is +EV.

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supermoneyz1

03-19-2006, 09:22 PM

#24 (permalink)

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This guide is awesome and I printed it out for all my friends to read. I only strongly disagree with one thing.

Quote:

Why constantly flip for your stack when you can see a flop and then make a decision. There will be numerous times, you're going to be flipping with QQ-88. Yet, then again times where you will have him dominated. Then a few unlucky times you will run into AA or KK. et

The word ALWAYS, entails that you've never just flat called a raise preflop with AK.

Quote:

It sounds like your just directly reading the guidelines without reading the critical information above them... If you take the guide out of contex and just follow that, sure, it's not going to be near as helpful... but if you read what is said, then you will know the WHY of each guideline, and that will enable you to understand when to NOT follow the guide

Chard, stated that this guide is for begginers. If you grabbed some AK hands out of your PT database and then explained the steps of how to play them with all factors accounted for, this post would be awesome. None the less, great post.

chardrian

03-19-2006, 11:24 PM

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The reason you ALWAYS raise preflop is because generally your opp's range with just one preflop raise will include hands like AQ and AJs, etc. You are dominating these hands.

The PROBLEM with flatcalling one raise preflop is that you are in essence hoping for that A or K on the flop which only happens 1 in 3 times.

I realize there are times where you can call, make a continuation bet on a blank flop and still take it down. But for beginners who generally like to call too much anyways. Learning how to become overly aggressive PREFLOP with AK with just one raiser is usually gonna help not hurt.

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supermoneyz1

03-19-2006, 11:31 PM

#26 (permalink)

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Quote:

The reason you ALWAYS raise preflop is because generally

Change always to mostly. The word always implies that you can never get a cheap pot with AK.

chardrian

03-19-2006, 11:35 PM

#27 (permalink)

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Meh - for you it is mostly. For any beginner reading this - I am sticking with always.

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supermoneyz1

03-19-2006, 11:49 PM

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for me its occasionally when a list of factors apply such as my position, stack size, opponents agression.

Therefore we disagree that AK should always reraise a raise preflop. Since one "could probally write 500 pages on AK and how to play it", and your post is only 1 page. The missing factors in the argument make this point indisputable.

Sprayed

03-19-2006, 11:54 PM

#29 (permalink)

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The reraise gives you a wealth of information. A smooth call makes you say I don't know where I'm at. In addition, the reraise helps you to isolate and not allow others to inter the pot. It's a strong hand that you want to play for a lot of chips.

I don't understand what the fuss is all about. Of course you’re not always going to reraise but I would think that that is when you would fold AK after someone reraises a raiser and that's only when the reraiser is somewhat tight. Over 90% of the time, I'm playing AK very aggressively.

Buzz

03-20-2006, 12:30 AM

#30 (permalink)

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Great post Chard ... I'm a beginner and I've bookmarked this for future reference when I donk off my stack with AK

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supermoneyz1

03-20-2006, 01:46 AM

#31 (permalink)

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Quote:

Of course you’re not always going to reraise

Quote:

3) If there is one raiser in front of you - online the answer is to ALWAYS reraise.

Case and point.

TLR

03-20-2006, 10:06 AM

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Very good and insightful post chard.

Poker is a situational game and a message in a poker forum can never capture the entire scope, but this post gave a good overview of the pros and cons of this hand and a general idea on how to play it, yes you need to adjust, ofcourse if you have a read on a player 'only raises with AA' you will not reraise him with AK, but as far as a general guide this post is really good.

Chard - waiting for part II now - playing AK postflop

chardrian

03-20-2006, 09:06 PM

#33 (permalink)

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An example from last night's tourney on why raising with AK against just one raise in front is right:

-----------------------------------------------------
Game #1361797289 - Tournament $80,000 R&A - 8,000/16,000 No Limit Texas Hold'em
- 2006/03/20-00:57:00.7 (CST)
Table "$80,000 R&A 93" (MTT) -- Seat 1 is the button
Seat 1: muraw58 (700,952 in chips)
Seat 3: marv_18 (211,572 in chips)
Seat 4: chardrian (290,820 in chips)
Seat 5: 21oops (280,618 in chips)
Seat 6: kice32 (147,572 in chips)
Seat 7: lulou (169,252 in chips)
Seat 9: twopair1 (170,890 in chips)
Seat 10: Cheese (410,400 in chips)
marv_18 : Ante (800)
chardrian: Ante (800)
21oops : Ante (800)
kice32 : Ante (800)
lulou : Ante (800)
twopair1: Ante (800)
Cheese : Ante (800)
muraw58 : Ante (800)
marv_18 : Post Small Blind (8,000)
chardrian: Post Big Blind (16,000)
Dealing...
Dealt to chardrian [ Kh ]
Dealt to chardrian [ As ]
21oops : Fold
kice32 : Fold
lulou : Raise (32,000)
twopair1: Fold
Cheese : Call (32,000)
muraw58 : Fold
marv_18 : Fold
chardrian: Raise (274,020)
lulou : Call All-in (136,452)
Cheese : Fold
*** FLOP *** : [ 5h Qd 3c ]
chardrian said, "9999"
*** TURN *** : [ 5h Qd 3c ] [ 7c ]
chardrian said, "999999"
chardrian said, "99999999"
*** RIVER *** : [ 5h Qd 3c 7c ] [ Jd ]
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: 383,304 | Board: [ 5h Qd 3c 7c Jd ]
muraw58 lost 800 (folded)
marv_18 lost 8,800 (folded)
chardrian bet 290,820, collected 504,872, net +214,052 (showed hand) [ Kh As ]
(high card ace)
21oops lost 800 (folded)
kice32 lost 800 (folded)
lulou lost 169,252 (showed hand) [ Ac 9d ] (high card ace)
twopair1 lost 800 (folded)
Cheese lost 32,800 (folded)
-----------------------------------------------------
Not only did I get the horridly played A9 to call me, but I also got Cheese out of the hand... and I'd be willing to bet almost anything that Cheese woulda won that hand if he stayed in. A flat call there woulda had me folding to any continuation bet on that flop.

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johnny_fish

03-21-2006, 05:37 AM

#34 (permalink)

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You're OOP and getting 5:1 on a great hand that misses 2 out of 3 on the flop.. Implied odds are there against Ax..

I don't see why flatcalling is worse than reraising.

I agree reraising is probably +cEV because of the FE, although it seems rather low here (minraise+call with shallow stacks).

But it increases chip-variance too.. Maybe it's +$EV though, I don't know.

aokrongly

03-21-2006, 06:53 AM

#35 (permalink)

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Good post Chard... until I saw the hand history (everytime I see one of those I think, "yea.. I'm gonna read that For sure" lol.

Anyway, I like the fact that you covered it as both a strong hand and a weak hand. I would add a few points (for those beginners taking notes).

I would play AK differently in a ring than in a MTT. Soo much depends on the details in a MTT (like stack sizes, blinds, position, player image). I like the reraise to a simple raise in front with AK. HOWEVER, I like it alot better in a ring game than an MTT. Alot of ... ummm how do you say... ring game logic bleeds over to MTT's in ways that sound like they make sense but I disagree with. I'm sure others will disagree with me on this but +/- EV is one of those bleedovers. IMHO in MTT's you are doing one of 4 things:
1. Value Betting with a winning hand
2. Trapping with a winning hand
3. Drawing
4. Bullying people out of a pot that you want to take without a showdown.

There are some hands that are more gray than others. But MTT hands are Much More Often Than Not Very Important, and they are vary rarely Very Cheap.

I'll give you an example, CoinFlips, aren't really 50/50. If you're holding AK unsuited then you have less outs than AKsuited. If the other guy has TT, JJ, or QQ then you are losing straight outs as well. The pocket pair always has the advantage in a coin flip. So, is the pocket pair vs AK +EV? IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY IN MTT. Let's say you win the hand with a pocket pair 55% of the time against AK. Go AI Twice and in that situation and you are out of the tournament (three times at most). In a ring game you can take that +EV stance continually and win (although you have to be careful of that as well because if you aren't always betting the same amount then you can end up losing, but that's another more complicated issue). To further complicate things alot of poker EV logic comes from LIMIT - where the whole game is about EV and making mathematical decisions based on pure odds.

MTT's are about Winning the Pot (with or without cards) or Getting Out Cheap. There's really not that much middle ground. If you have an "average stack" and you're playing a guy with an "average stack" and you have 20xBB or so and so does he, AND neither of you wants to fold BUT you also don't want to put the other guy to the test then YEA you could start talking EV.

However, it's almost never like that. MTT's are a combination of chess moves and Chicken! So any discussion of AK has to take that into consideration.

Here are the questions I ask myself when I have AK:
1. What's my position? (I want to play it harder from early position. I want to put out a good raise and a good, strong continuation bet from early position. I want to play it a little more delicately in late position - both to bring the other player along and to take care how many chips I want to risk from a "stealing position". Think about it this way, Early I want to make a strong statement and then have a good followup. I don't want to see a showdown if I miss and I probably won't see one if I hit on the flop. Late (especially if no one acted ahead of me) then people are putting you on a higher chance of doing a blind-steal with any A or K. So, they are going to put you to the test if the flop comes all low (or they are folding to you preflop). It Get's Complicated really quick. And that's just Question #1.

Question #2 - What's my stack? Compared to the players in the hand, compared to the blinds, compared to the upcoming blinds. In other words, how much does just taking the blinds help me? And what are the chances of me ending up AI against a larger stack? If I have less than 15-20X the combined blinds and antes then I'm pushing AK or calling someone else's push for all my chips. If I have a zillion chips then I'm going to try to suck someone else into the hand and lay a trap.

#3 Am I going to end up AI with these cards regardless? There are situations where you know you aren't going to fold your AK. It's the first face cards you've seen in an hour. You're feeling short stacked - whether you are or not. You have a hardon for other player in the hand because you have been in too many pissing contests with him, or just don't think he's a good player. Whatever the reason, if you've already decided "If I raise and get reraised back I'm either calling off the rest of my chips or pushing them" then you might as well push them all in preflop. AK is not a hand you want to commit 40+% of your stack to PREFLOP only to fold it if you don't hit on the flop. (of course that describes MOST hands in MTT. Which my point regarding "EV".

Next, IS THE OTHER GUY going to end up AI regardless? If so, because he's on the short stack, then you might as well put him all in.

The logic with both these questions is this - you want to see ALL 5 CARDS ON THE BOARD with AK. AK is only a coin flip (which it isn't, but we're still pretending that it is) when you see all 5 board cards. If you see 3 then fold. It's alot worse than a coin flip.

ON THE OTHER HAND. If you push the other guy's pocket pair out of the hand preflop then it's alot BETTER THAN a coinflip.

...

I just realized this post could go on for a long time, which indicates how tricky AK is in a MTT.

Here's what I was thinking when I started this post, so I'll just say it:

1. AK vs PP is NOT a coinflip and EVEN IF IT IS you need to win it 100% of the time when you are AI with it, not 50%. So, take that into consideration... THAT SAID, AK dominates any other Ace high or King high hand - so you're wayyy ahead if you think the other guy is playing with just A or K high (which is the case when someone really needs the blinds to stay in the tourney).

If you are in a situation where the hand is going to play out each betting round - no one is going to push preflop, flop or turn at least - then you have to understand that AK is a very easy hand to READ. Especially if you are in early position. Here's what it looks like (and how anyone - including you - with balls can sniff out AK). For this situation AK is in early position, unknown cards are in late position, and it's heads up on the flop.
PREFLOP = AK raises,other dude calls
Flop (no A or K) - AK makes a continuation bet of 1/2 the pot, give or take a little. Late position can fold, but he does an AK sniff-out move by min raising. AK CALLS THE MIN RAISE. BINGO this is only part 1 of a 2 part tell, however.
NEXT CARD is no help to AK, and AK .... CHECKS. That's part 2 and is 90% certain. Now the other guy buts damn near anything decent - half the pot. AK folds. The other guy had JTs, chips to play with, and some MTT experience against AK.

So, realize that you can smoke away some chips from AK if you have position and balls. Or you can burn some of your own chips away with AK if you don't pay attention to the signals you are sending. How do you avoid this? That's for you to figure out.

Position
Cards
Stack (average/comparative)
Table Image
Who are your opponents
Action before it gets to you
AK is an advanced play in a MTT. On a ring game it's a simple play. In a MTT it's a nail biter.

So, if you aren't going to take "coin flips" with AK, then how do you get chips? I would rather bang some weak players into the ground with any 2 cards than take a known coinflip with AK. It's +EV to steal from weak MTT players 100% of the time. It's low risk, consistent reward. Work on watching who is playing too weak and too tight, and go after them. POUND THEM. If you win 2 for every 1 time they stand up (which is more likely to be 5 for every 1) then you are +++EV.

Good. Luck. I like the post, even though I sounded like I was disagreeing. You made good points in simple terms. I just can't find a simple way to approach ak in a mtt.

chardrian

03-21-2006, 05:18 PM

#36 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

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Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

Flat calling sucks, cuz I DON'T want to just see a flop. As AOK mentions AK needs to see all 5 cards in order for it to get it's true (almost) coinflip value.

The fact that I am OOP here as the bigblind, is a huge reason why I just push here. And it's the main reason why AK is so valuable. It's got tons of fold equity.

My push puts the big decision on lulou and Cheese. If either of them have hands like AQ, AJ, or QK than it is a hard decision and I'll dominate them if they call. But even if they have hands like 55-JJ, it is a hard decision for them, because I could very easily be making this same play with QQ-AA and toasting them.

In this case lulou made a horrible decision to call with A9 (TT-AA, and AT-AK have him absolutely destroyed, and his possibility of destroying me is almost zero).

Sprayed

03-21-2006, 06:39 PM

#37 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Quote:

Originally Posted by chardrian

In this case lulou made a horrible decision to call with A9 (TT-AA, and AT-AK have him absolutely destroyed, and his possibility of destroying me is almost zero).

That's not what you thought when you were playing the hand.

chardrian said, "9999"
*** TURN *** : [ 5h Qd 3c ] [ 7c ]
chardrian said, "999999"
chardrian said, "99999999"

Warpe

03-21-2006, 06:54 PM

#38 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sprayed

Quote:

Originally Posted by chardrian

In this case lulou made a horrible decision to call with A9 (TT-AA, and AT-AK have him absolutely destroyed, and his possibility of destroying me is almost zero).

That's not what you thought when you were playing the hand.

chardrian said, "9999"
*** TURN *** : [ 5h Qd 3c ] [ 7c ]
chardrian said, "999999"
chardrian said, "99999999"

Jinx chat. Not that there's any superstition in poker

Sprayed

03-21-2006, 06:56 PM

#39 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sprayed

Quote:

Originally Posted by chardrian

In this case lulou made a horrible decision to call with A9 (TT-AA, and AT-AK have him absolutely destroyed, and his possibility of destroying me is almost zero).

That's not what you thought when you were playing the hand.

chardrian said, "9999"
*** TURN *** : [ 5h Qd 3c ] [ 7c ]
chardrian said, "999999"
chardrian said, "99999999"

Jinx chat. Not that there's any superstition in poker

I know, just giving chard a hard time.

Warpe

03-21-2006, 06:59 PM

#40 (permalink)

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chardrian

03-21-2006, 07:28 PM

#41 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

Join Date: Apr 2005

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And this is how well the antijinx chat worked later.

-----------------------------------------------------
Game #1361860121 - Tournament $80,000 R&A - 20,000/40,000 No Limit Texas Hold'em
- 2006/03/20-01:48:13.4 (CST)
Table "$80,000 R&A 93" (MTT) -- Seat 10 is the button
Seat 1: muraw58 (640,518 in chips)
Seat 4: chardrian (619,932 in chips)
Seat 6: the chef (696,388 in chips)
Seat 7: thecafeman (337,680 in chips)
Seat 8: THE__D__RY (1,257,040 in chips)
Seat 10: cool0813 (1,150,442 in chips)
chardrian: Ante (2,000)
the chef: Ante (2,000)
thecafeman: Ante (2,000)
THE__D__RY: Ante (2,000)
cool0813: Ante (2,000)
muraw58 : Ante (2,000)
muraw58 : Post Small Blind (20,000)
chardrian: Post Big Blind (40,000)
Dealing...
Dealt to chardrian [ Ad ]
Dealt to chardrian [ Kc ]
the chef: Fold
thecafeman: Raise (105,000)
THE__D__RY: Fold
cool0813: Fold
muraw58 : Fold
chardrian: Raise (577,932)
thecafeman: Call All-in (230,680)
the chef said, "gl"
*** FLOP *** : [ 9s 4c 5d ]
chardrian said, "99999"
WyattEarpX said, "goooooooooooooooooooooo"
chardrian said, "9"
*** TURN *** : [ 9s 4c 5d ] [ 6h ]
chardrian said, "9"
chardrian said, "9"
*** RIVER *** : [ 9s 4c 5d 6h ] [ Ts ]
the chef said, "ouch"
chardrian said, "blah"
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: 703,360 | Board: [ 9s 4c 5d 6h Ts ]
muraw58 lost 22,000 (folded)
chardrian bet 619,932, collected 282,252, net -337,680 (showed hand) [ Ad Kc ]
(high card ace)
the chef lost 2,000 (folded)
thecafeman bet 337,680, collected 703,360, net +365,680 (showed hand) [ 9d As ]
(a pair of nines)
THE__D__RY lost 2,000 (folded)
cool0813 lost 2,000 (folded)
-----------------------------------------------------

doh!

http://chardrian.blogspot.com
come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com

Warpe

03-21-2006, 07:34 PM

#42 (permalink)

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It's not what you say, it's how you say it. You typed in an odd number of 9s. That's anti-anti-jinx.

gabe

03-21-2006, 07:36 PM

#43 (permalink)

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gabe is an unknown quantity at this point

if there is a raiser in front of me and they suck and the stacks are deep, sometimes i call. if they have a pocket pair i dont really want to flip, and if they are dominated i know i can stack them when an ace hits.

chardrian

03-21-2006, 07:46 PM

#44 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

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Posts: 4,512

Yup, it's risk/reward. But reraising with AK against a sucky player is never a bad thing either.

http://chardrian.blogspot.com
come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com

Sprayed

03-21-2006, 07:55 PM

#45 (permalink)

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I have to disagree with gabe and go with warpe on this one. It's all about the amount of times you type "9".

koolmoe

03-21-2006, 08:58 PM

#46 (permalink)

Full House

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Posts: 1,279

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laeelin

AK's value is mostly in it's fold equidy

What is this supposed to mean? What is the difference in FE between AK and 72o?

Poker is freedom

chardrian

03-21-2006, 09:31 PM

#47 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

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Probably a bad usage of the term on my part. FE comes more from chips stacks than the cards. The most important part about AK is "AK is valuable because if someone raises in front of you, you can reraise with little fear." This relates to fold equity because generally by reraising you can get people to fold hands.

http://chardrian.blogspot.com
come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com

THaC

03-21-2006, 09:58 PM

#48 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: Carey, Ohio

Posts: 389

Here's a question about AK, a few things about the tourney so far: ANGIOLETTO just lost almost all of his stack AK v AA, and I was hoping he'd go all-in with any 2 out of tilt. It played out exactly how I wanted it to, but should I have raised to 120, or would that have scared him out, or didn't it matter either way?

PokerStars Game #4366164730: Tournament #21709856, Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2006/03/21 - 16:44:43 (ET)
Table '21709856 1' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: ANGIOLETTO (285 in chips)
Seat 2: nafadl (3140 in chips)
Seat 3: djzip13 (1940 in chips)
Seat 4: herbeees (4490 in chips)
Seat 5: AttyBubba (1240 in chips)
Seat 6: Regen (925 in chips)
Seat 7: mozel (2180 in chips)
Seat 8: TbHackworth (1075 in chips)
Seat 9: bashbroth (1605 in chips)
AttyBubba: posts small blind 15
Regen: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TbHackworth [Kh As]
djzip13 is connected
mozel: folds
TbHackworth: raises 30 to 60
bashbroth: folds
ANGIOLETTO: raises 225 to 285 and is all-in
nafadl: calls 285
djzip13: raises 1655 to 1940 and is all-in
herbeees: folds
AttyBubba: folds
Regen: folds
TbHackworth: calls 1015 and is all-in
nafadl: folds
*** FLOP *** [3d Ad 4s]
*** TURN *** [3d Ad 4s] [Js]
*** RIVER *** [3d Ad 4s Js] [8d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TbHackworth: shows [Kh As] (a pair of Aces)
djzip13: shows [6d 6h] (a pair of Sixes)
TbHackworth collected 1580 from side pot
ANGIOLETTO: shows [Jc 7c] (a pair of Jacks)
TbHackworth collected 1185 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2765 Main pot 1185. Side pot 1580. | Rake 0
Board [3d Ad 4s Js 8d]
Seat 1: ANGIOLETTO showed [Jc 7c] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 2: nafadl folded before Flop
Seat 3: djzip13 showed [6d 6h] and lost with a pair of Sixes
Seat 4: herbeees (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: AttyBubba (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: Regen (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: mozel folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: TbHackworth showed [Kh As] and won (2765) with a pair of Aces
Seat 9: bashbroth folded before Flop (didn't bet)[/color]

chardrian

03-21-2006, 10:06 PM

#49 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

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Posts: 4,512

Min raises suck.

As played, this hand is more like #5 in my mini-"guide" than anything else. You raise, get re-raised and that reraise gets re-re-raised. If the original re-raisers (ANGIO's) stack was bigger than this hand should be a fold almost every time. With your read that ANGIO is tilting your only pertitent read is on dj. If, and only if, he is pushing here with hands like AQ or AJ is your call a good one. Otherwise, fold. You are not putting a hard decision on anyone by CALLING off your stack.

http://chardrian.blogspot.com
come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com

THaC

03-21-2006, 10:10 PM

#50 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: Carey, Ohio

Posts: 389

Okay, thanks!

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Comments: char's thoughts on the true value of AK

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