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revolvingiris
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09-30-2009, 07:32 AM
Post subject: Block up to FT
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,139
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I hope I am able to generate a convo with this thread that digs a little deeper than "here is my hand, how is my line". I would like to discuss how I approach MTTs and how the previous quote doesn't really help your game.
For me, a MTT is an entire entity. Its not just KQ, AJ, or even a range of hands. Its one big puzzle and each player has a puzzle piece I am trying to take from them to put the whole thing together. I'm sure everyone thinks like this on some line but we can dig a little further.
Each piece of the puzzle is represented by x starting stack (I'll use 180s as an example). In the 180s we start with 1500 chips, so 1500 = to 1 puzzle piece, and there are 180 starting puzzle pieces. As the tourney continues, players begin to collect pieces until someone has taken all 180 sections and completed their own full puzzle. Once this is done, the tourney is over and there can only be 1 winner who can see the whole picture.
I always keep this is my mind as I go. My goal is not to collect chips but to collect as many blocks of the puzzle as I can. Chips for the most part are too small of a fraction and I can find it difficult to range bet sizes based on that. For me, it is much easier to do it by pieces of the puzzle.
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ihategnomes
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,225
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Insert, Abort, Retry?
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Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
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Im_new
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,055
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This is "cutesy," and I do not believe that this is a helpful way of attacking MTTs. These puzzle pieces, when you win them all, will not reveal some grand bigger picture. Once you win, you will not know how to win again. For the sake of playing with your puzzle analogy, each table you encounter can be viewed as a puzzle. You have to identify each playing type and understand how each one reacts to the others and yourself. From there, you develop a logical and mathematically sound method to counter and adapt to each particular scenario. This can be as simple as folding because of position or as complicated as calculating $EV at a final table with several short stacks. The puzzle is not in the chips. The puzzle is in those 8 others around the felt.
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"Gotta run well eventually."
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revolvingiris
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,139
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ihategnomes
Insert, Abort, Retry?
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Where is my flaw?
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ihategnomes
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,225
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by revolvingiris
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ihategnomes
Insert, Abort, Retry?
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Where is my flaw? |
Where is the content?
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Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,601
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If you explain how this helps you to play better it might move the discussion along.
I'm unclear how seeing someone as a bigger piece, or more pieces, is different from seeing them as a bigger stack.
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revolvingiris
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,139
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It really isn't different, it just helps me see the tourney as a whole while I am playing. For example:
Say the blinds are 100-200 (hypothetically no antes) and I raised 300 pf with one caller. The pot is now 900 (both blinds folded) and I want to know how much to bet. If we go off of the 180 example I used previously. Then there are 180 puzzle pieces, with 1 puzzle piece representing 1500 chips.
900/1500 = .6 or 60% of 1 piece in the pot already (same thing as chips its just easier for me to visualize it this way). Since its my goal to get as many "1500" in the pot as I can. I would bet between 300-600 depending on what I think villain will call. With this pot size and say I am betting for value. I will always go for 1500 chips or to try and stretch it out to get 3k = 2 pieces in the pot.
It also helps me when I am looking at my chip stack in comparison to the tourney. If I have a stack of 4500 then I know I am worth 3 pieces of the puzzle and I have 177 left to collect. This part really comes in handy for me when I am at a FT.
Say were 8 handed and I have a stack of 45k (30 pieces). Say a short stack shoves in for roughly 15k (10 pieces) and I want to call. Just by looking at it this way I can quickly see I am risking 1/3 of my pieces or stack. This is nothing than just my method of reducing chip stacks to their absolute minimum.
On a last note, you can also figure out pot odds this way (big shock). If there is 2700 in the pot and someone shoves 5675, and your wanting to call.
2700/1500= 1.8 pieces
5675/1500= 3.78 pieces
1.8+3.78 = 5.58
5.58 / 3.87 = 1.44
1/1.44+1 = 40% to make the call.
However, I would have rounded the numbers to make the math easier (2+4=6; 6/4=1.5; 1/1.5+1=.4 or 40%).
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Seems like adding extra layers of abstraction for no reason. Most people would see that calling 15K of a 45K stack is risking 1/3 of their stack because they know how to divide by three.
Just focus on making plays that win you chips and avoiding plays that lose you chips. Occasionally you might want to deviate from that because of some deeper strategy considerations, but before you even think about that you should know the basics. Judging by the fact that you want to fold QQ to a 10 BB shove you're not at that point yet. Your post is kind of like someone talking about how to pace themself for a marathon but they don't even know how to walk.
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dthorne04
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: hi
Posts: 478
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Your post is kind of like someone talking about how to pace themself for a marathon but they don't even know how to walk.
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nicer version of mcat's post: worry about shoring up your mtt fundamentals before you get all fucking crazy on us.
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derp
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Exactly. There are lots of resources out there like Sng Wiz, PokerStove, etc. that you can use to learn how to play a solid winning game. Once you've achieved that then you can try to think about the game on a deeper level but it's hard to go beyond the fundamentals if you don't even know what they are yet.
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Im_new
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,055
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Exactly. There are lots of resources out there like Sng Wiz, PokerStove, etc. that you can use to learn how to play a solid winning game. Once you've achieved that then you can try to think about the game on a deeper level but it's hard to go beyond the fundamentals if you don't even know what they are yet. |
what he said.
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revolvingiris
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,139
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Judging by the fact that you want to fold QQ to a 10 BB shove you're not at that point yet.
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That post is going to haunt me forever...If you go back and read that thread. Fjuanl pointed out the flaw in my ICM calculations, leak fixed.
For me this isn't added anything. Its just how I visualize tourneys while I play them. I also have all those tools you mentioned Mcat...
BTW I was excited to see ihategnomes posting. I hope your back for a while.
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