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| pat3392 |
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At the moment I am having difficulties beating the local live games. The majority of players play very straight forward, rarely bluff, chase when they really shouldn't be chasing( they really overestimate draws, don't understand pot odds and the term "on average," and like to limp a lot, with all sorts of crap, rarely raise pre-flop, call very lightly, and don't go into push-fold mode; basically loose passive players. I have been playing really tight against them so I know when I am up against them that I have the best kicker if I hit top pair(most of the time anyway). This wasn't working as I was constantly blinding off, so I decided to start raising a lot when I play; I raise 3BB plus 1 for every caller, which is huge to these players because they usually only min raise or 3 bet at most; people suspect I'm bluffing though when I do this (at least I think so) but they don't really want to risk it too often since I don't play many hands; it's dependent on the player really. However, I'm still blinding off, since they are turbo tourneys. They call too much to make bluffing profitable, most of the time anyway. Under good circumstances it works, but these don't seem to present themselves too often, although I think I'm being a little selective and should take a few more risks. So, I've been thinking there is two different approaches to be able to beat these guys: Stick to my style, perhaps loosen a little more(just a tad) and once I have mastered push-fold mode I should do well, just starting to understand the mechanics behind push fold mode, hopefully will figure out all the math in a few days  However, the problem with this is since I play with these players regularly, they are more likely to call me with weakish hands( the other night a player called me for 9 blinds with A9 since he seen me go all in with rag a previous game, he was the small blind I was on the button, he had about 20 blinds though, no other limpers/raises) Because of this, I will have to be careful with what I go all in with, so I'm skeptical of this approach as I believe I will still blind off. The second approach is to loosen up a lot, as in play hands like K10 in middle-early position, not too early though, like UTG 3 onwards. Basically start playing more marginal hands. Not sure if I should call them or raise. If you did decide to play K10 in middle position, would you call or raise if you and your opponents were reasonably stacked(20-25 blinds) and there was only 1-2 callers. Oh, and one more thing. I have been calling small pockets if I don't believe I will be further raised, and I/opponent(s) have 15 blinds or more. However, I'm starting to think this may be the wrong way of going about it; should I raise these hands, essentially turning them into a semi-bluff. What about medium pockets? Wow, long post. This has been on my mind for the last few days now. Any advice will be greatly appreciated! |
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| Penneywize |
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Well, sounds like you aren't far off from a decent strategy against these types of players. Yes, you generally need hands to beat them, since they can't be bluffed; you'll be winning chips at showdown mainly. The upside is when you do hit your hands, you can bet out for value, knowing these calling stations are going to pay you off handsomely more often than not. This isn't always the case however. Pay close attention to see if anyone has the capacity to fold hands; if you see this happen on a few occasions you can be fairly certain they can lay down to your bluffs down the road. As these are turbo tournaments, you should really focus on getting the M/CSI aspects of tournament poker memorized. M (or CSI as referred to in 'Kill Everyone') is a value that describes the relative size of your stack vs. how many orbits you can sustain before running out of chips entirely. For example, if the blinds are 100/200 (no antes), and your stack is 1500, you have an M of 5. What this is number is useful for is understanding when you are in dire straits and should be pushing instead of opening with a raise (push/fold mode as you described it). The magic number is typically 7 or 8 depending. If your M is under 3, you have no fold equity (i.e. no propensity to push anyone off their hands - you will be called), you're looking for a hand to just get it in with. There is obviously a lot more to it than this - understanding when you need to push or fold based on your M value is fine, but what hands do you push, with what M values, and from which positions do you push them...? and what hands do you call off your remaining stack with? If you want to know more about all this (I can't possibly hope to capitulate all this info to you in the space of one post) I'd suggest picking up 'Kill Everyone', who should be mailing me my commissions check sometime in the next week or so... |
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| Arjonius |
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If you're being blinded off, you're playing too tight. Are you stealing your share of blinds? If you're being called light by opponents who play straightforward poker, it seems likely you can win quite a fair number of pots by continuation betting when neither of you has much. Of course, it's nice to do this in position. Also, fast structures tend to favor aggressive play in general, which suggests you may want to consider widening you opening range, and your raising range if you're limping behind frequently. |
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| Kijjo |
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Sounds to me like you don't want to implement what we consider normal strategies online, into your live play. It sounds like you're reasoning your way out of optimal play because "they" don't do it. Screw them. Raise preflop with impunity. Steal their blinds as appropriate. It will either work because they'll start calling with subpar hands or they'll get pissed and fight back with subpar hands. Either way, that's what you want. Either your description of their play is accurate (which I believe) and you'll start crushing them, or it's innaccurate and you'll find out how they really play. If they're willing to overpay for draws, test the limits, let's see just how much you can make them call to hit. If they won't transition into push/fold when they're short, pound them mercilessly. If these are your friends and you don't want to be unpopular, stop playing this tourney. If they're not your friends, then take their chips just the same as you would from a faceless avatar online. I had a similar feeling the last time I played in a home tourney with some old friends after a couple years of playing online (we had 27 guys playing 3 tourneys). After being nice and playing stupid in the first tourney (and losing horribly), I kicked myself in the butt and told myself to play for real. The field was dumbfounded and helpless for the other two games I played. I shook their hands and politely told them I wouldn't come back, I like them too much to enjoy taking their $. I'd rather be their friend and play against fish I don't know. **This is simply 100% opinion from the way you write. I could be way off base. |
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Donk Skills:
#1 The bluff call #2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet __________________________________________________ _____________ "What we do in life echoes in eternity." Maximus Decimus Meridius - Gladiator
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| Im_new |
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Quote:
 and I agree with ya 100%... In my case, my friends wont even let me play. |
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| pat3392 |
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| @kijjo, great reply.thanks | ||
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| Kijjo |
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| glad if it helps pat - so do you think you'll continue playing with that crew? I'll be interested to hear how things evolve. | ||
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Donk Skills:
#1 The bluff call #2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet __________________________________________________ _____________ "What we do in life echoes in eternity." Maximus Decimus Meridius - Gladiator
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| Poker Orifice |
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ha ha ha... sounds like you're describing the play in the local live tournaments where I live (usually around 100 entrants, sometimes a bit more). Structure moves along okay at first but then blinds escalate exponentially, 90% of players don't make adjustments for stack sizes and around bubble play you'll see 3/4 of the table sitting on <10bb's, actually with 7 or 8bb's being about avg. for the table. Same thing for preflop play... limp.. limp.. limp.. 'min-raise'.. call call call. I played way too tight in the first couple I played (and gave players way too much respect). Didn't seem to matter how tight though.... ie. I wake up with AKs in SB, 3limpers.. I raise to 7 or 8x and limpers.. call call call. It's pretty funny. You get players who'll limp their entire range (ie. J5s is a limp/call any raise OOP, but same for AKs, 99-QQ, etc.). Start of one tourney we're 150bb's deep, there's 3 limpers and then SB shoves 150bb's... they all fold (obv) and SB proudly flips over AA saying, "I'm not going to 'risk it' getting called preflop with AA.. no way!" (I knew I was in for a crazy day, lol). I like the players who'll stand up, lean forward to stare at the board, assessing whether or not it gives them a potential gutter, lol. I now play them very aggressively & alot is player read dependant. Some will not fold, some LOVE to trap, others are the flush masters (if it's sooooooted... they're calling any preflop raise in any pos., regardless of stack sizes, etc.). Obviously a TON of adjustments need to be made compared to playing tournaments online. best advice.... GL & hope to get good cards, lol |
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"SEIBORG"
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| Kijjo |
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Quote:
One sng I remember about 6 mos. ago online, it was early in the game and a dude did the same thing shoving pre for like 50 chips in blinds or something, then shows. Then he types something like this in the chat box: Always just happy to win anything with those rockets, you know they only stand up about 20% of the time. I was impressed that not one person said anything until the guy got knocked out. Then we all had a good laugh. |
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Donk Skills:
#1 The bluff call #2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet __________________________________________________ _____________ "What we do in life echoes in eternity." Maximus Decimus Meridius - Gladiator
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