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bjsaust

06-29-2007, 12:16 AM Post subject: Another interesting hand for comment

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

Again very early so no reads. What are your thoughts on flop turn and river actions?

I'm trying to work on my medium strength hands. I dont want to overplay them, but I want to get them right.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG (t3310)
UTG+1 (t1440)
MP1 (t1630)
MP2 (t1210)
Hero (t1470)
CO (t1150)
Button (t1310)
SB (t1400)
BB (t580)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K

, Q

.
2 folds, MP1 calls t30, MP2 calls t30, Hero calls t30, 1 fold, Button calls t30, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (t165) 4

, T

, Q

(5 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets t60, MP2 folds, Hero raises to t180, Button folds, BB folds, MP1 calls t120.

Turn: (t525) 9

(2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets t330, MP1 calls t330.

River: (t1185) 9

(2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: t1185

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Zee Devee

06-29-2007, 12:35 AM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Wisconsin

Posts: 694

Flop: I raise it to 220ish just to pot it.

Turn: I like it.

River: Like it a lot. There is no way you should bet because no hand you will beat will call (except maybe JQ) and it wil give him an opportunity to checkraise and push you out.

taipan168

06-29-2007, 12:42 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Preflop: Limping or folding are both OK here from MP3, if I was on the button I would definitely limp, if you were in MP1 with UTG and UTG+1 limping I would fold.

Flop: I would raise a bit more with TPGK on that drawy board - you're offering opp almost 3.5 to 1 to peel off another card. I'd make it 250 to go to give opp incorrect odds to chase.

Turn: I actually like to check behind here rather than betting again, to keep the pot size under control. Sure, you're giving opp a free card to beat you, but the problem with betting here is that you might have to fold the best hand on the river if opp bets again.

River: After opp checks twice I'd value bet this, make it 300-400 to go.

bjsaust

06-29-2007, 12:48 AM

#4 (permalink)

Straight Flush

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Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

Interesting. I deliberately made flop reraise a bit lower than usual because I've done it before and been told it was too big. I guess I'll work this out eventually

.

Now the two of you disagree

. Obviously my thinking on turn was that with two flush draws and a straight draw out there I had to take odds away. However Taipans point is one reason I posted this, I tend to inflate these medium str hands with these 'remove odds' bets, and end up with big pots on the river. Not sure whats right there.

Again river was the once bitten twice shy approach. Soo many of these guys think the slowplay is the greatest move in poker.

Just playing to improve.

taipan168

06-29-2007, 12:52 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Don't post results so soon, edit them out so that other respondents aren't influenced by the results.

bjsaust

06-29-2007, 12:56 AM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

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Done.

Hopefully someone else will respond, wasnt sure they would. Especially interested in thoughts on the turn 'bet to take odds off draws or check behind to keep pot small' question.

Just playing to improve.

taipan168

06-29-2007, 01:26 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Hopefully someone else will respond, wasnt sure they would. Especially interested in thoughts on the turn 'bet to take odds off draws or check behind to keep pot small' question.

Maybe this is one of my biases, but I've lost so many stacks of chips with KQ even with a K or Q on the flop. If we had 44 preflop I would definitely be betting the turn hard to deny odds to the draws.

As played, meh I don't hate checking behind given that opp called your flop raise and your big turn bet. If he does have KJ or a set (FH) I would expect at least something of a bet on the river though.

bjsaust

06-29-2007, 03:32 AM

#8 (permalink)

Straight Flush

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Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

Quote:

Originally Posted by taipan168

Flop: I would raise a bit more with TPGK on that drawy board - you're offering opp almost 3.5 to 1 to peel off another card. I'd make it 250 to go to give opp incorrect odds to chase.

What odds am I trying to set on a flop like that?

Just playing to improve.

taipan168

06-29-2007, 04:02 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Quote:

Originally Posted by taipan168

Flop: I would raise a bit more with TPGK on that drawy board - you're offering opp almost 3.5 to 1 to peel off another card. I'd make it 250 to go to give opp incorrect odds to chase.

What odds am I trying to set on a flop like that?

Well, if opp is on the flush draw then they are about 4:1 to hit their flush. Add the possibility of an overcard (ace?) then they are 12/46 to hit on the turn. That's 2.8 to 1 against. I'd be looking to set odds about that or slightly worse. Raising to 250 would give him odds to call of (165 in pot + his 60 donkbet + your 250 raise = 475/190 for him to call = 2.5 to 1).

If they're on an OESD then they are 4.75 to 1 against to hit on the turn so your raise is fine - but since you don't know which it is I'd lean towards raising more.

Of course, this assumes that you're ahead to start with and not crushed by AK, a set or 2 pair.

Jack Sawyer

06-29-2007, 04:59 AM

#10 (permalink)

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You should check the river.
However, you probably have the best hand here.

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Jack Sawyer

06-29-2007, 05:11 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Interesting. I deliberately made flop reraise a bit lower than usual because I've done it before and been told it was too big. I guess I'll work this out eventually

.

Now the two of you disagree

Minimal bet on flop by opp. is somewhat of a giveaway. i really can't think he's slowplaying anything here.
My guess is opp. is a huge donk chasing pricey draws.

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Quote:

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Fnord

06-29-2007, 05:17 AM

#12 (permalink)

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On the flop how big do you think Hero's edge is? How would a raise to 150 vs 180 vs 220 going to effect the pot size on future betting rounds?

On most turn cards how well is our hand going to fair against MP1's range if our flop raise is called?

Finally, put all that together to come up with a great river line. Can we get it all-in before the river and would we want to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

bjsaust

06-29-2007, 05:46 AM

#13 (permalink)

Straight Flush

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On the flop I'm almost certain I'm ahead. AQ is unlikey given PF limps (although I've seen worse limps). You can never discount a set or two pair, but a draw is much more likely, especially with that little bet.

So coming into the turn I'm worried about 9 hearts, and probably any card from 9-A other than another Q (even K is risky for me). That said, theres no reason to believe one of them is actually the card that beats me. The problem is, can I get not only my money AI before the river, but get opps money AI before the river and still be ahead?

Just playing to improve.

bigslikk

06-29-2007, 06:15 AM

#14 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: Chicago

Posts: 445

I think it's good as played really. You probably have the best on the flop, it's a good raise. On the turn, good follow-through. River is right- no money to be made with an extra bet (usually).

Oh, and I hate checking turns unless the board is exactly right.

Fnord

07-01-2007, 02:52 AM

#15 (permalink)

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I would raise a little less on the flop. Like 150 or 160 and fold to a push.

I want to get a feel for where we're at, get the other 3 players out of the pot and I think 150-160 does that as well as any bigger bet, saving us chips for later. Really no need to blow draws out of the pot as any bet that big would get us crushed by big hands.

Assuming a good (enough) turn card I'd hammer it for around the size of the pot. On bad turn card I'd check behind and look at how hard he wants to push.

I think a big key here is we want to isolate or sniff out any 3rd parties with a big hand on the flop. Then drop a healthy bet on the turn. I don't think bloating the flop is the way to go here as I don't think we have a great edge, it will push out weak hands (JTo) and make it harder to get away with enough chips left to play PTSnG poker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

bjsaust

07-01-2007, 02:58 AM

#16 (permalink)

Straight Flush

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Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

How does that 9 on the turn strike you? Good enough to bet turn? Its a danger card, but could have missed villian completely.

Just playing to improve.

Fnord

07-01-2007, 03:02 AM

#17 (permalink)

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Not high on my list of great cards, but I'd go ahead and hammer it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

bjsaust

07-01-2007, 03:07 AM

#18 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

OK, I'm going to assume this hands been discussed enough now and give results.

Villian had J9o for an OESD on the flop, OESD and a middle pair on Turn and he picked up trips on the river and slowplayed them.

Just playing to improve.

Fnord

07-01-2007, 03:09 AM

#19 (permalink)

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Betting the river for value here is a cash game play against weak players. I think in a one table tourney saving the chips has enough value to pass on the edge to protect your stack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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