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AA on a all diamond flop?

  
 
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Stripclubjunkie
Old 03-22-2006, 07:49 PM     Post subject: AA on a all diamond flop? #1 (permalink)  
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#Game No : 3798271359
***** Hand History for Game 3798271359 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $33 Buy-in Trny:21277044 Level:1 Blinds(20/40) - Wednesday, March 22, 15:42:35 ET 2006
Table Daddy Day Care (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: clevelandohd ( $2000 )
Seat 4: Fulleee ( $2000 )
Seat 5: raisingwrags ( $2000 )
Seat 6: ivory88 ( $2000 )
Seat 7: rokk10 ( $2000 )
Seat 8: say_10 ( $2000 )
Seat 10: corkykim ( $2000 )
Seat 3: Stripclbjnk ( $2000 )
Seat 2: polo146 ( $2000 )
Seat 9: rr113 ( $2000 )
Trny:21277044 Level:1
Blinds(20/40)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Stripclbjnk [ Ah Ac ]
say_10 folds.
rr113 folds.
corkykim calls [40].
clevelandohd folds.
polo146 calls [40].
Stripclbjnk raises [130].
Fulleee folds.
raisingwrags folds.
ivory88 folds.
rokk10 folds.
corkykim calls [90].
polo146 calls [90].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6d, 9d, 4d ]
corkykim bets [340].
polo146 calls [340].
Hero...

How do you play this flop ?
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drmcboy
Old 03-22-2006, 07:56 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 Raise more pre flop. 5x at least.

First hand, no reads, I'm probably just pushing here.
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Stripclubjunkie
Old 03-22-2006, 08:01 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
Raise more pre flop. 5x at least.

First hand, no reads, I'm probably just pushing here.
I know i should have raised more pf. If you push only a made flush would call, right? Wouldn't it be better to just reraise him and fold to his push?
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drmcboy
Old 03-22-2006, 08:07 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 No. Any PP > 99 with one D problaby calls. You aren't a huge favorite, but que sara. Ad9 calls. Adxanything may call.

Folding is OK, but I think you fold the best hand pretty often. Anything in between makes no sense. You're going to re raise to what, 1k? what hand do you think is folding for 600 more.
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Stripclubjunkie
Old 03-22-2006, 08:10 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
No. Any PP > 99 with one D problaby calls. You aren't a huge favorite, but que sara. Ad9 calls. Adxanything may call.

Folding is OK, but I think you fold the best hand pretty often. Anything in between makes no sense. You're going to re raise to what, 1k? what hand do you think is folding for 600 more.
You are probably right, but i could see TT or something folding to a reaise i don't know...
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STIdrivr
Old 03-22-2006, 09:46 PM #6 (permalink)  
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its the first hand,there is plenty of money in the pot, when you go all in you dont care if they both fold really.
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Scuba Chuck
Old 03-22-2006, 10:24 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
Folding is OK, but I think you fold the best hand pretty often.
I don't know if that's true, that he's folding the best hand pretty often once there's already been an overcall. Anyway, with a bet and an overcall, I think we can assume our pot equity has been diminished. If someone goes and does the easy work, and calculates our pot equity here, it might be an easier decision. That being said, we've only got 130 chips invested into this pot, and a lot of action before us. Another way of saying it is that this is one of those types of situations where learning how to fold aces is probably a sign that you're a better player. Without the overcall, I think we play this hand differently.
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Scuba Chuck
Old 03-23-2006, 03:41 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Haha, I thought this is pretty funny. I found this while searching through the 2+2 archives for something.

I can't believe I've been playing and studying this long ...
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Stagemn
Old 03-23-2006, 03:57 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
Raise more pre flop. 5x at least.

First hand, no reads, I'm probably just pushing here.
Actually pre-flop raise 6xBB (240). You got 2 limpers behind you. Would you think they both called your more agressive pre-flop raise with even low suited connectors? Likely not.
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fasin8ing
Old 03-23-2006, 04:04 AM #10 (permalink)  
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1 Diamond calling ... = Ace of Diamonds
 
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Stripclubjunkie
Old 03-23-2006, 08:52 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Pot Equity: There's t1070 in the pot, where hero has invested t130. But whats my chance of winning the pot?
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TLR
Old 03-23-2006, 11:31 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 2 people in the pot, I think either you are behind (a set, 2 diamonds, or you have someone with a pair + diamond draw (11-14 outs) - I fold here


 
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Stripclubjunkie
Old 03-23-2006, 03:00 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLR
2 people in the pot, I think either you are behind (a set, 2 diamonds, or you have someone with a pair + diamond draw (11-14 outs) - I fold here
I find a fold here very hard to do. Out of frustration of not knowing what the right to do was, i pushed it.

** Dealing Flop ** [ 6d, 9d, 4d ]
corkykim bets [340].
polo146 calls [340].
Hero is all-In [1870]
corkykim is all-In [1530]
polo146 folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7s ]
** Dealing River ** [ 2s ]
corkykim shows [ 6s, 6h ] three of a kind, sixes.
Hero shows [ Ah, Ac ] a pair of aces.

I must say its very difficult for me too identify a set. Pf two limpers i raise to 130( too small i know), and they both called, right there i was thinking small pairs(is that a right assumption to make?) that call because of the implied odds. Corkykim hits his third 6 and because of the scary flop hit bets the pot OOP, otherwise wouldnt he just check it to me? And then either call or checkraise? If made that play it would have been easier for me to fold it. So the question is how do you identify a set? I would like to see some HH where you've folded a big pp to a set.

Strip
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Scuba Chuck
Old 03-23-2006, 04:13 PM #14 (permalink)  
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It's very difficult (if not impossible) to identify a set against an unknown player. Since you did not protect your hand well enough preflop, and this board sucks, and there's an overcall, there's plenty of good reason to have some doubts. It's easier to identify when you're behind when there's more players, and more action in the hand. Worrying about id'ing when your opponent has a set (against an unknown that is) is a waste of time. Just focus on other parts of your game. There are two things to take away from this hand. 1 - preflop, you should realize that you did not protect your hand well enough to shove all your chips in the middle first (although I'd shove if I had the flush ace). 2 - on this particular flop, with the action in front of you, there is plenty to consider besides am I good right now, like, what is your pot equity?
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drmcboy
Old 03-23-2006, 04:18 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
I would like to see some HH where you've folded a big pp to a set.
me too.

overcall scares me not at all, any hand that has AA beat raises this board except made nut flush. Either corky has you beat or you're good. Overcall obv screams FD which is why I think push/fold. Like I said, with no read on corky I think either are OK. LAGG read push, TAG read you can maybe give him set and see a fold.
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Scuba Chuck
Old 03-23-2006, 04:25 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
Quote:
I would like to see some HH where you've folded a big pp to a set.
me too.
Next time I come across one, I'll post it. In fact, I've folded a set before because of too much action. FYI, I get stacked frequently enough by people with sets, so I'm not perfect. It happens more often with less action, and more attractive boards. There's no way to put anybody on a set ever in these games against an unknown opponent. But, in this hand, you have to consider the pot equity, but no one's man enough to do the work. If I had to guess, our pot equity is less than 50%, I just don't know by how much.
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Stripclubjunkie
Old 03-23-2006, 04:51 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Ok Scuba just downloaded pokerstove. I've put in the board: 6d 9d 4d and have put Player 1: AA. Then i've have to put the other two on handranges? Which ones? Would appreciate your help Scuba
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Scuba Chuck
Old 03-23-2006, 05:19 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Let's start putting together an assumed hand range for our opponents. I'll start the conversation, but I don't think I should be the definitive. The one thing I think it's safe for us to assume right now is that corkykim does not have the nut flush. It's possible he already has a made flush, but he almost certainly does not have the nut flush. I'll help guide the rest of the discussion on hand ranges. What you got?
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Stripclubjunkie
Old 03-23-2006, 05:29 PM #19 (permalink)  
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KTs-KQs. All pp except QQ-AA, he would have raised those pf?
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Scuba Chuck
Old 03-23-2006, 06:44 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripclubjunkie
KTs-KQs. All pp except QQ-AA, he would have raised those pf?
LOL, you need to do both, not just one. And it is important to recognize that there are differences. I won't be back at a computer for a little bit, but try and think each hand range through. Look at your HH, try and think about who would make these types of plays based on their action.
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Stripclubjunkie
Old 03-23-2006, 07:11 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba Chuck
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripclubjunkie
KTs-KQs. All pp except QQ-AA, he would have raised those pf?
LOL, you need to do both, not just one. And it is important to recognize that there are differences. I won't be back at a computer for a little bit, but try and think each hand range through. Look at your HH, try and think about who would make these types of plays based on their action.
I know that Will look at it in the weekend, too tired now...
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zenbitz
Old 03-23-2006, 09:27 PM #22 (permalink)  
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I actually think you can lay down AA here. It might be weak/tight but I think limp/call pf = small pp or 2 s00ted.

Bet and call indicate they have AT WORST 1 diamond - I just don't think TT-QQ is in this situation (limp-call pf, lead 3-diamond flop) maybe if they hold a diamond.
:Td: :Jd: :Qd:

This is literally the first hand too. I might have just pushed preflop to play 'catch a moron'.
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Stripclubjunkie
Old 03-31-2006, 04:54 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Pot Equity: 56% of t1070=t600-t130(what we put in the pot)=t470

Board: 9d 6d 4d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 56.5147 % 56.31% 00.21% { AA }
Hand 2: 21.7426 % 21.52% 00.23% { TT-44, ATs+, ATo+ }
Hand 3: 21.7426 % 21.52% 00.23% { TT-44, ATs+, ATo+ }

Hand range?
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zenbitz
Old 03-31-2006, 06:36 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripclubjunkie
Pot Equity: 56% of t1070=t600-t130(what we put in the pot)=t470

Hand 2: 21.7426 % 21.52% 00.23% { TT-44, ATs+, ATo+ }
Hand 3: 21.7426 % 21.52% 00.23% { TT-44, ATs+, ATo+ }

Hand range?
Ug. pre-flop: 22-QQ, A2s+ A8+ 2 suited, maybe even QJ/TJ/T9o After bet and call on the flop...

66/99/44 sets
XdX pairs
TT-QQ overpairs
XdXd flushes
AX/QJ/TJ/T9 1 diamond flush draws.

About the only hand I rule out is 69 two pair.
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Scuba Chuck
Old 03-31-2006, 08:01 PM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripclubjunkie
Pot Equity: 56% of t1070=t600-t130(what we put in the pot)=t470

Board: 9d 6d 4d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 56.5147 % 56.31% 00.21% { AA }
Hand 2: 21.7426 % 21.52% 00.23% { TT-44, ATs+, ATo+ }
Hand 3: 21.7426 % 21.52% 00.23% { TT-44, ATs+, ATo+ }

Hand range?
Guess I wasn't specific. Since we have already seen some action on the flop, we can now choose a postflop hand range. I was hoping that's how you'd run these...
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