Originally Posted by Im_new

i guess I should follow my gut.

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

You can use ICM. Just make sure your on cEV mode and it will calculate it for you. And yeah I think its a good fold. NH!

Edit: Not ICM, I meant SnGwiz

Originally Posted by tugger

I don't think we should be assuming he'd simply make a x3 raise with KK and AA, and not push.

I'd be very suspicious if someone with 13bb and in 8th pos out of 9 made a standard raise in an MTT with six people to act after (4 with position on him). To me, that looks like he wants action. He should be treating hands like AA and KK exactly the same as 9Ts, 66, AQ... push or fold. His range is wide, and he knows it, so why not make it look like a steal?

We don't have all the required info here, though. Are we in the money already? How steep are the prizes if we're in the money?

I think 99 is the right fold, though. It seems close, but I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, since he's not shipping every other hand.

Originally Posted by tugger

The "steepness" of prizes is the difference between 9th and 8th, and then 8th and 7th etc. It's relevant simply because, if the prize structure is steep (ie large difference) it becomes more in our interests to make tight folds, hoping the shorts bust out before us.

For example, if prize for 9th is $1000, and 8th is $1100, then we can gamble, but if 9th is $1000, and 8th is $2000, then we should play uber tight.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

LOL

Originally Posted by drmcboy

it makes no difference to what the right play is, although it may affect your play. Since that seems a really bizarre way to approach an answer to a forum question, I was caused to laugh audibly. In addition you asked about the steepness, got your answer and then did not want it.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

Have I done it? Yes. Should you advise people to play that way since you would? of course not.

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

Sprayed rocking the simple syllables

Originally Posted by Extremophile

I rather prefer AA+ at these spots.

Originally Posted by Im_new

Is everyone keeping into consideration that this is a big ole donkament?

Originally Posted by Im_new

With that said, will be play this hand differently at a $100+9?

Originally Posted by fjuanl

At a $109 I think this is an automatic fistpump shove because its more likely that villain is shoving a correct range, or maybe even a range looser than optimal

Originally Posted by tugger

My bankroll is lurking between $100 and $150 (can't seem to get any higher) at any given time, which means I have no choice but to play these donkaments. I refuse point blank to top my bankroll up, I earned what I have through freerolls and a $10 present off my brother. That's it. So even if I blow my bankroll, it cost me nothing.

I *try* to rise above the donk plays that everyone else is making, I figure if I'm playing good, tight poker, then in theory I should be able to walk thorugh these tourneys, unless I'm card dead. Of course, it doesn't work out like this, I usually get my AQ busted by AT to bust out, or something similar. But the point I'm trying to make is, I try not to lower myself to their standards.

Would a donk fold 99 to an all in here? Probably not. I don't want to be that donk. Now, don't get me wrong, I call this if I have to, but we don't have to here.

Now, I'm probably leaving myself wide open to ridicule here, but if I'm playing a table of donks, I TIGHTEN my range in this spot! I'd rather try to outplay the donks after the flop, rather than get into a race pre flop with them. I'm patient enough to wait for a better spot. JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK, AQ, maybe TT. These are the hands I call here, unless I have a real good read on the player.

And, it should be added, 99 is one of my least favourite hands. I think I lose money overall with this hand, which is why I'm so keen to muck the fucker. So perhaps my opinion is biased.

"By saying things like that, we assume that our opponents are knowledgeable and that he is capable of high order thinking skills. "

Heh, I take this as a compliment!

Originally Posted by tugger

"His range is not 5%. I would not throw KK+ in his range because he would not shove those hands."

I'd be shoving with KK+ here. Raising with this stack to x3 or x4 is transparant. I'd be much more likely to call a short stack's all in with 99 than call a x4 raise from the same short stack with the same hand.

Having said that, the reason I fold is because we've just got back in to it, and we don't need to be racing. It seems pretty 50-50 to me. Sure, he might have 88-, but two overs seem most likely.

Originally Posted by tugger

My bankroll is lurking between $100 and $150 (can't seem to get any higher) at any given time, which means I have no choice but to play these donkaments. I refuse point blank to top my bankroll up, I earned what I have through freerolls and a $10 present off my brother. That's it. So even if I blow my bankroll, it cost me nothing.

I *try* to rise above the donk plays that everyone else is making, I figure if I'm playing good, tight poker, then in theory I should be able to walk thorugh these tourneys, unless I'm card dead. Of course, it doesn't work out like this, I usually get my AQ busted by AT to bust out, or something similar. But the point I'm trying to make is, I try not to lower myself to their standards.

Would a donk fold 99 to an all in here? Probably not. I don't want to be that donk. Now, don't get me wrong, I call this if I have to, but we don't have to here.

Now, I'm probably leaving myself wide open to ridicule here, but if I'm playing a table of donks, I TIGHTEN my range in this spot! I'd rather try to outplay the donks after the flop, rather than get into a race pre flop with them. I'm patient enough to wait for a better spot. JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK, AQ, maybe TT. These are the hands I call here, unless I have a real good read on the player.

And, it should be added, 99 is one of my least favourite hands. I think I lose money overall with this hand, which is why I'm so keen to muck the fucker. So perhaps my opinion is biased.

"By saying things like that, we assume that our opponents are knowledgeable and that he is capable of high order thinking skills. "

Heh, I take this as a compliment!

Originally Posted by Sprayed

Are you calling me a donk? :D I guess if the shoe fits right? Since your tournabments are filled with donks, that is even more of an incintive to call with 99 in this spot. You are smoking their range. It sounds like you're waiting for the best hands in poker and then blinding out. You need to work on getting it in good against their range.

Originally Posted by tugger

Am I calling you a donk? Ha! No, but a donk doesn't fold this. I'm not saying anyone who calls it is therefore a donk. If you're calling it based on range and maths, then you're not a donk. If you just see two nines, and don't care what the others have, and don't care about maths, then you're a donk!

I don't sit and wait for the best hands, but when it comes to a shove, I'm obviously going to tighten my range. 99 is just one of those awkward hands for me.



But, I think you guys are right. My game is nowhere near good enough yet to be making the right decisions with hands like this. It's easy if I have QQ, anyone can play automatic poker. I'm trying to be better than the donks, but obviously I'm not there yet! So I guess that makes me a donk! But, at the very least, I'm trying to drag myself out of the rut...

Originally Posted by Sprayed

Get pokerstove and you will see that even 88 might be a call in this spot against various ranges. Get rid of the notion that there are better spots and take every +EV play that you can.

Originally Posted by DoanDiggy

You do it beforehand for common spots like these that come up all the time so that when you're in this spot, you're ready.

Originally Posted by tugger

Fair enough. So it's study, study and more study, right?

I can fairly quickly estimate if a decision is + or - ev, but it's not going to be accurate. I let implied odds do the rest.

Having said that, I will spend time assessing these kind of hands, because it's these I seem to be having problems with.

Originally Posted by Sprayed

You need to study. You don't make calculations at the table. Implied odds will primarily help you to make post flop decisions when stacks are deep enough. In tournaments, you are faced with more shallow stack decisions. Therefore, knowing when to call all ins or when to shove when short is very important.