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($11) Rough hands (AQ, AQ)

  
 
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Im_new
Old 06-28-2008, 07:15 PM     Post subject: ($11) Rough hands (AQ, AQ) #1 (permalink)  
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what do you do in these hands?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero (t1450)
BB (t470)
UTG (t1375)
UTG+1 (t1255)
MP1 (t2190)
MP2 (t3745)
CO (t1245)
Button (t1770)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, Q.
5 folds, Button raises to t125, Hero calls t100, 1 fold.

Flop: (t300) 3, 7, 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (t300) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (t300) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets t200, Button raises to t500, Hero calls t300.

Final Pot: t1300




Villian hasn't been particularly aggressive lately.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB (t2640)
Hero (t1085)
UTG (t1390)
MP (t1890)
CO (t3890)
Button (t2605)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, J.
4 folds, SB raises to t200, Hero raises to t1085,


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drmcboy
Old 06-28-2008, 10:19 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 1) I would try and win the pot at some point, usually re raise pre flop. As played after he checks behind on the flop, the turn is an auto bet. Unless you have a huge bluffer read (in which case again 3 bet pre) river is a c/c. Remember on the river it doesn't matter how good your hand is, it only matters how it compares to villain's calling range.

2) any play besides a shove is bad.
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taipan168
Old 06-29-2008, 12:35 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Hand 1 - I tend to just shove back preflop. As played, I think I play it weak and play the flop and turn as you did, but I agree with drmcboy that the river is a check/call. I don't think that I bet the turn as we still have some outs on the river and I don't want to be C-Red off the hand on the turn.

Hand 2 - Easy shove back for me too.
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mukaka
Old 06-29-2008, 01:35 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Hand 1 - calling is not good because you'll play OOP.. If this raise was coming from an earlier position I would consider folding but at the button people might raise lots of hands so I would probably push.. One thing to add though.. His raise size is weird.. Any type of player usually make it at least 150 pre-flop.. His raise looks like he wants some action.. if he has the goods don't forget to take a note..

Hand 2 - He is raising sooooooo many hands here BvB.. So I also think it's an easy push..
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TLR
Old 06-29-2008, 09:20 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 Hand1: As everyone else said, raise preflop, I would bet flop, and if you check flop bet turn, as drmcboy said river is c/c, becuase you will usually get called by hands that beat/tie with you

Hand2: Standard


 
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Im_new
Old 06-30-2008, 02:34 AM #6 (permalink)  
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in hand one, if I make it 475 to go, do I call a shove?


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drmcboy
Old 06-30-2008, 04:52 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Im_new
in hand one, if I make it 475 to go, do I call a shove?
put him on a range, stove it and compare to your pot odds. This is a test but it's essay, you can't memorize the answers.
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givememyleg
Old 06-30-2008, 04:57 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Im_new
in hand one, if I make it 475 to go, do I call a shove?
don't make it 475 everrrrrr
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givememyleg
Old 06-30-2008, 04:58 AM #9 (permalink)  
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 oh nvm, thought you meant hand 2!

short answer, yes
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Ryski
Old 07-01-2008, 12:58 AM #10 (permalink)  
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For those of you saying you are going to re-raise pre-flop for hand 1 - are you raising or shoving? If you are raising consider these two scenarios:

1) What are you doing if he shoves after your raise? You've now put in almost 1/3 of your stack, I assume you call?

2) What if they call with position. Now you have about 1k left and 800 in the pot and are out of position so what is your plan on the flop?

Seems easier to me to call and re-evaluate on the flop. If it wasn't a full table I wouldn't think too much about re-raising but it is early.

Just curious.
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taipan168
Old 07-01-2008, 01:18 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryski
For those of you saying you are going to re-raise pre-flop for hand 1 - are you raising or shoving? If you are raising consider these two scenarios:

1) What are you doing if he shoves after your raise? You've now put in almost 1/3 of your stack, I assume you call?

2) What if they call with position. Now you have about 1k left and 800 in the pot and are out of position so what is your plan on the flop?

Seems easier to me to call and re-evaluate on the flop. If it wasn't a full table I wouldn't think too much about re-raising but it is early.

Just curious.
That's why I said to just shove back preflop, it's unexploitable. I think re-raising less than AI is bad for the reasons you stated above.
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drmcboy
Old 07-01-2008, 01:38 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 how are you exploiting me shoving all flops I miss? Your fear of the stop and go has become a little weird honestly. Just try it for a week, people call and fold a LOT.
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taipan168
Old 07-01-2008, 02:27 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
how are you exploiting me shoving all flops I miss? Your fear of the stop and go has become a little weird honestly. Just try it for a week, people call and fold a LOT.
I should have said - re-raising less than AI and then not shoving the flop would be bad. I still prefer shoving back preflop however, we are way ahead of his range and it's a lower variance play because of the fold equity we have.
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drmcboy
Old 07-01-2008, 02:52 AM #14 (permalink)  
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 but the FE is vs hands you want in (worse As and KQ-) and against hands that you'll almost always beat with the stop and go (or I guess go and go here) anyway, smaller PPs. And we gain some FE vs 77-JJ if he's dumb enough to cold call with them, and lose 0 since we can assume he's calling as shove with those anyway. What hands could he hold where shoving is better?
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Ryski
Old 07-01-2008, 03:53 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Personally out of the 3 options discussed I would not be re-raising all in risking my stack for what is in the pot. I'd prefer just calling and playing from there but I don't think re-raising and then shoving flop is bad either. I just prefer the former...
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TLR
Old 07-01-2008, 04:45 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryski
For those of you saying you are going to re-raise pre-flop for hand 1 - are you raising or shoving? If you are raising consider these two scenarios:

1) What are you doing if he shoves after your raise? You've now put in almost 1/3 of your stack, I assume you call?

2) What if they call with position. Now you have about 1k left and 800 in the pot and are out of position so what is your plan on the flop?

Seems easier to me to call and re-evaluate on the flop. If it wasn't a full table I wouldn't think too much about re-raising but it is early.

Just curious.
I am reraising to about 325-350, whether or not I call a push depends a lot on BB action, if BB folds and button pushes I call, if BB shoves I fold.
I dont like calling one bit here, you give the BB decent odds to call pretty wide, and you are OOP for the rest of the hand in a 2-3 way pot much harder.

Lets assume you call and BB folds, what is your re-evaluation on the flop on the following flops?
A. flop A73 rainbow
B. flop K97, 2 suites
C. Flop TT3 rainbow
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Ryski
Old 07-01-2008, 05:02 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Guess I misread the hand a little because I thought Hero was BB. This changes things for me in favor of re-raising ( still not all-in though ).

Anyway, assuming I call and choose to play the hand passively I check all those flops and trap with a). Not sure which suits are in the B.
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TLR
Old 07-01-2008, 05:15 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryski
Guess I misread the hand a little because I thought Hero was BB. This changes things for me in favor of re-raising ( still not all-in though ).

Anyway, assuming I call and choose to play the hand passively I check all those flops and trap with a). Not sure which suits are in the B.
I meant two not of your suite, sorry.

I assume by playing passively you mean check-fold on missed flops. I think this gives way too much credit to the button raise


 
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Ryski
Old 07-01-2008, 05:58 AM #19 (permalink)  
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What I meant by playing passively is let him take the lead if I choose to just call instead of re-raise. I'll check raise flops with nothing if I've seen him cbet before but I have to have a read.
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taipan168
Old 07-01-2008, 10:48 AM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
but the FE is vs hands you want in (worse As and KQ-) and against hands that you'll almost always beat with the stop and go (or I guess go and go here) anyway, smaller PPs. And we gain some FE vs 77-JJ if he's dumb enough to cold call with them, and lose 0 since we can assume he's calling as shove with those anyway. What hands could he hold where shoving is better?
I don't hate the go and go by any means, but some players will call a shove over with hands you dominate because they think you're trying to pick off their button steal. I've seen a lot of players make hero calls with A2-AJ and other random broadway cards because they think you're shoving over with 72o or something. If you re-raise less than AI, those same players may well call your 3-bet but fold the flop if they miss.
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drmcboy
Old 07-01-2008, 04:11 PM #21 (permalink)  
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 help me out because it seems like you just said you're shoving because we have FE and because they'll call with weak hands. Also having them call with Ax and random BWs rather than call a 3 bet then fold increases your variance.

Quote:
I still prefer shoving back preflop however, we are way ahead of his range and it's a lower variance play because of the fold equity we have.
Quote:
but some players will call a shove over with hands you dominate because they think you're trying to pick off their button steal. I've seen a lot of players make hero calls with A2-AJ and other random broadway cards because they think you're shoving over with 72o or something. If you re-raise less than AI, those same players may well call your 3-bet but fold the flop if they miss.
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Ryski
Old 07-01-2008, 06:13 PM #22 (permalink)  
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If we 3-bet and they call, what flops are we prepared to shove? I have on occasion done this but I don't remember the outcome.
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drmcboy
Old 07-01-2008, 06:25 PM #23 (permalink)  
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 100 %, although if you flop TP+ and the board is dry you're probably better off giving him a chance to bluff. That's especially true if it comes Q high because he'll often think you have AK or JJ after you check.

If you only shove some flops when you miss then open shoving would be better, you can't guess which flops hit him. The same flops that are bad to shove if he has KJ are the ones you want to shove if he has AT or 66
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Ryski
Old 07-01-2008, 08:14 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Yeah I figured we'd be shoving 100% here. I guess you give yourself 2 ways to win this pot - re-raising preflop and if he calls you shove flop hoping he missed or you hit.

In theory sounds good, not sure how it works out in practice though.
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