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TLR
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11-24-2009, 04:16 PM
Post subject: $25+2 6 handed - flopped set with possible str8
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 25 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
saw flop
Button (t900)
Hero (SB) (t1570)
BB (t1930)
UTG (t1510)
MP (t1470)
CO (t1620)
Hero's M: 52.33
Preflop: Hero is SB with Q , Q
2 folds, CO bets t60, 1 fold, Hero raises to t140, 1 fold, CO calls t80
Flop: (t300) 10 , Q, J (2 players)
Hero bets t180, CO calls t180
Turn: (t660) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets t360, CO calls t360
River: (t1380) A (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t940 (All-In), Hero calls t890 (All-In)
Total pot: t3160
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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Gross, I think if you should 3-bet bigger from the SB, to at least $200.
This is one of the worst flops for top set...I'd bet close to pot to set up a turn shove on a safe card.
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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3b bigger pre and bet more on all streets with a board as drawy as this. I think you do this, you can probably get it in on turn anyway.
Why did u 3b so small?
Reads?
As played I probably c/c river too.
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Muzzard
3b bigger pre and bet more on all streets with a board as drawy as this. I think you do this, you can probably get it in on turn anyway.
Why did u 3b so small?
Reads?
As played I probably c/c river too.
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The reason I 3bet so small is that it is usually enough to get the big blind out and will keep villian around, and will allow me to escape with relatively small damage if an A flops
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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I'm pretty sure that's pretty bad reasoning. Correct me if I'm wrong, pretty sure you got most SnG experience than I do.
if we 3ball bigger he's going to fold A2 or some shit, but might call with some weird crap coz you gave him such a good price. Plus he's IP so it's going to be fairly easy for him postflop.
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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Do you prefer him to call or fold with hands like KJ, A8 etc?
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Extremophile
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Stackton
Posts: 451
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I sometimes 3bet less than 3x, too but, 140 seems to be too small. 3-betting 3x or more may be better when there are antes, taking down a relatively bigger pot without risking anything. Whe we 3bet small, they will also pair on the flop and we will get value at least one more street. How much to 3bet, as you guys already know, is villian dependant. We don't want him to fold, right. So, there should be a limit for each villian. Also, 3bet sizing may depend on the character of the player; accumulators and conservatives might be 3betting differently. well, in my poor opinion.
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Alpine021
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 172
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Maybe shove turn? he got to be drawing or 2 pair at best. Looks like u were still trying to get value?
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sportbike33
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 68
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The general consensus is right.
3Bet more, if you are gonna bet that small you are going to get called... then when a flop like that happens you r bound to either win a smaller pot or lose a big one...
I think the solution is you migh twant to slow down after the flop
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TLR
Do you prefer him to call or fold with hands like KJ, A8 etc?
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Obv call, but if he's calling with these anyway, which he shouldn't ,whether we bet 140 or 180 or 240 then doesn't matter coz he's obv lolbad.
Sure I'd call with JKs or something if you gave me these odds or even like 22. But I'd fold them if you 3x+ it most times, esp A8.
Basically if he's bad just 3x+ coz he's calling anyway with alot worse. If he's any good 3x it coz you don't want him to call with something speculative that has some sort of decent equity when you give him massive odds to call.
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taipan168
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10,441
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I agree with the others, I am 3-betting more, to 180-200. If he will call 140 he will likely call a bigger 3-bet.
Betting more helps you build the pot to, as baudib said, bet closer to pot on the flop then shove the turn.
As played, that's a bad card on the river, but a diamond or a T would be worse, I think I c/c as well.
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Extremophile
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Stackton
Posts: 451
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I wanted to put him on a range and see how much we get on the river. This is what I think his range would be against our perceived range:
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
31 games 0.005 secs 6,200 games/sec
Board: Td Qd Jc Ah 3h
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 09.677% 09.68% 00.00% 3 0.00 { QhQs }
Hand 1: 90.323% 90.32% 00.00% 28 0.00 { AQs+, KJs+, AQo+, KJo+ }
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According to this range, the river is a fold, unless we put him on something retarded like AT, AJ, JT, QJ. If he had JJ, TT, or KK he would get it in on the flop. He might even push KQ, QJ, QT, and JT on the flop. I don't know what % of the time he bluffs here against our perceived range.
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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The reason we 3-bet larger is because we're out of position, we want more money in the pot and we want to deny odds to speculative hands. We're not raising to get away from bad flops, but because we want more money in the pot so we can play for stacks on flops we like. This is certainly one of them.
If we raise larger, it probably induces a shove from AK. instead it allows him to play in position perfectly.
i think we're looking at:
AK that flopped a straight
Kx that's chasing
Adxd turning his hand into a bluff
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Extremophile
I wanted to put him on a range and see how much we get on the river. This is what I think his range would be against our perceived range:
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
31 games 0.005 secs 6,200 games/sec
Board: Td Qd Jc Ah 3h
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 09.677% 09.68% 00.00% 3 0.00 { QhQs }
Hand 1: 90.323% 90.32% 00.00% 28 0.00 { AQs+, KJs+, AQo+, KJo+ }
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According to this range, the river is a fold, unless we put him on something retarded like AT, AJ, JT, QJ. If he had JJ, TT, or KK he would get it in on the flop. He might even push KQ, QJ, QT, and JT on the flop. I don't know what % of the time he bluffs here against our perceived range.
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I actually did not think it is very likely he has KQ/KJ I would expect a raise on this flop, I put him more on a hand like 2 pair or AQ/J/T, with a possibilty of a flopped str8 with AK
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by taipan168
I agree with the others, I am 3-betting more, to 180-200. If he will call 140 he will likely call a bigger 3-bet.
Betting more helps you build the pot to, as baudib said, bet closer to pot on the flop then shove the turn.
As played, that's a bad card on the river, but a diamond or a T would be worse, I think I c/c as well.
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I agree that if he called 140 he calls 180 as well most likely, maybe 180 would have been a better bet.
This early I am not that happy to build a big pot with QQ OOP. There is also value in keeping the pot relatively small, and controling the pot size in case A or K flops, which is much more common then flops like this
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Alpine021
Maybe shove turn? he got to be drawing or 2 pair at best. Looks like u were still trying to get value?
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I was trying to get value, the only card I was really concerned about is if a K hits on the river
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taipan168
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10,441
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TLR
This early I am not that happy to build a big pot with QQ OOP. There is also value in keeping the pot relatively small, and controling the pot size in case A or K flops, which is much more common then flops like this
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I don't agree, I'm not scared to build a big pot with QQ even if I am out of position. If you had something like 99/TT I would agree with your logic and I might just call, however QQ is too strong for pot control to be a consideration here. If opp has AK then an A or K will flop 32% of the time, so most of the time you'll flop either a set or undercards.
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stubear7
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 4
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wow what a flop, with the way the action went before the flop id be confident my set was ahead, of course the nuts is ak but thiers no way id put him on that after limping and flat calling your small raise, thiers a small chance hes got suited connected cards 89 and got really lucky but thiers other straights that could beat him, so maybe hed play that hand aggressivley, so its unlikley hes got that, id assume he had two pair at best maybe qj or maybe some kind of straight draw like a8 or kj. so youve got to play this hand agressivly a big bet on the flop after the blank on the turn PUSH, your hand is simply to easy to beat numerouse straight draws and of course the diamond flush draw.
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mcduff
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: bluff calling
Posts: 3
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i 3bet larger pre, and bet the flop near enough pot, but i do agree pot manipulation is important early, i dont get the river call though, is he really bluffing enough that its profitable?
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcduff
i 3bet larger pre, and bet the flop near enough pot, but i do agree pot manipulation is important early, i dont get the river call though, is he really bluffing enough that its profitable?
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I think you will see bluffs and AJ/AQ/AT hands who think they have the best hand often enough to justify a call
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Nakamura
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Grindin'
Posts: 1,515
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Nice hand. I think this is one of these cases where 90% of the time you win the hand before a showdown and think nothing more of the bet sizing.
I'd probably 3-bet to at least 180 to build a bigger flop pre-flop with probably the best hand. On a drawy board, I'd probably bet something like 2/3 - 3/4 of the pot. However, we do have top set so I see a good argument for your betting line of a little less, since we may well stack 2 pair hands who feel they are ahead when a J or T comes out. These hands may well fold to very aggressive betting on what is a pretty scary board.
As played I puke and call the river.
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nakamura
Nice hand. I think this is one of these cases where 90% of the time you win the hand before a showdown and think nothing more of the bet sizing.
I'd probably 3-bet to at least 180 to build a bigger flop pre-flop with probably the best hand. On a drawy board, I'd probably bet something like 2/3 - 3/4 of the pot. However, we do have top set so I see a good argument for your betting line of a little less, since we may well stack 2 pair hands who feel they are ahead when a J or T comes out. These hands may well fold to very aggressive betting on what is a pretty scary board.
As played I puke and call the river.
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yep, I puked and called
Villian turned over T9
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Extremophile
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Stackton
Posts: 451
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TLR
yep, I puked and called
Villian turned over T9
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lol I wouldn't expect such a weak play at this level. You guys are right; I underestimated the bluffing %.
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Extremophile
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TLR
As played I puke and call the river.
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yep, I puked and called
Villian turned over T9 |
lol I wouldn't expect such a weak play at this level. You guys are right; I underestimated the bluffing %.[/QUOTE]Yeah, I think villian misplayed his hand on all streets except the river
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