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NLHE T&P - Week 9 Discussion p. 183-205

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zook

03-05-2007, 10:43 PM Post subject: NLHE T&P - Week 9 Discussion p. 183-205

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 3,676

1. On p. 185, in the section on adjusting to loose games and players, S&M write:

Quote:

Seek big preflop pots with big pocket pairs like pocket kings, but avoid them with big unpaired cards like ace-king.

Why should you avoid big pre-flop pots with AK? Is this advice specific to loose games?

2. Do you find the type of weak/tight player Ed Miller describes in your online games? How do you identify them?

3. Have you ever intentionally bought in short to a cash game? What was your pre-flop strategy?

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zenbitz

03-07-2007, 02:55 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 2,911

1) if the flop goes multi-way you will need to hit to win. Somewhere else in the book it mentions that you should often go a/i pre-flop with AK...

2) 50NL on FTP was like this at the end of last year, but much more aggro since Neteller went busto.

3) I think about it every so often... but there has to be some game selection here. Why buy in to say, 200NL with a $50 stack as opposed to a full stack at 50NL? Just pay more in blinds. So, it's meaningless for lower limits. Might make sense if you are b/r for 1000NL and want to play 5K with 20BB.

zook

03-07-2007, 03:24 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 3,676

Thanks for keeping up zenbitz. Feels like I'm in a book club of one once in awhile

re: #2 I find that 100NL and 200NL full-ring have a fair number of players that fit some of Ed Miller's descriptions. They don't raise many hands pre-flop and can be pushed off of hands pretty easily. They're more aggressive post-flop, and probably bluff more than the live players Ed's describing do, but they're still exploitable. Look for multi-tablers with stats like 15/5 and raise their c-bets, occasionally lead or c/r turns, fold to resistance. There's still money to be made online!

Da GOAT

03-07-2007, 08:24 AM Post subject: Re: NLHE T&P - Week 9 Discussion p. 183-205

#4 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Feb 2006

Location: Dublin

Posts: 4,308

Quote:

Originally Posted by zook

1. On p. 185, in the section on adjusting to loose games and players, S&M write:

Quote:

Seek big preflop pots with big pocket pairs like pocket kings, but avoid them with big unpaired cards like ace-king.

Why should you avoid big pre-flop pots with AK? Is this advice specific to loose games?

With big PP's it usually ok to commit to the hand on the flop if the preflop plays developed a big flop (ie. with at least one RR). AK is so much more vulnerable in these spots by often commiting to TPTK. vs unknowns plyers with AK would be best to take a more conservative approach (at least when OOP). In loose games id prob be more apt to being v aggro PF with it to avoid multiway and also be more inclined to felt TP (but this depends on aggro or passive opp's)

2. Do you find the type of weak/tight player Ed Miller describes in your online games? How do you identify them?

i havent come across this guy so much yet, not since i left stars anyway

3. Have you ever intentionally bought in short to a cash game? What was your pre-flop strategy?

haha yes, live game while drunk $50 in 1/2 NL. doubled up in first hand felting TPGK then losing it 10 hands later

Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.

The Odds God

03-08-2007, 03:45 PM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2007

Posts: 252

1. There are two kinds of big preflop pots.
- a lot of raising - one players moves all in
- raised multiway pot.

In first case, your AK is probably beat or, if you are up against loose player, you probably have only a coin flip.

In multiway pot, you usually need two pair or better to win and if you hit just top pair, you might get into some trouble. That is why Sklansky suggests to reraise with AK if there is raiser and a cold caller to isolate cold caller and to get information about the strength of raiser's hand. In loose games, that isolation play might not work so it is a dangerous play.

2. I play 25NL at stars and I am quite surprised - there are a lot of weak tight players. You just look at their stats and then exploit them with bluffing, reraising them, because some of them dont call reraise with just AK, I believe (never saw them folding that hand , but I believe they do it). If they have AA or KK, they will move in, if they have JJ, they will probably fold to reraise.

Also, if I raised preflop and they make a small bet to me (like 1/4 of pot) they are probably weak so I raise them light. When they have a great hand, they will let you know - sometimes they will quickly move in with the nuts. They won't even slowplay. So transparent.

3. I think playing short is for cowards who don't have balls or bankrolls to play full stack. I have both so I never do it. But an interesting thing is I heard that Phil Ivey does it sometimes, but he is probably just training for tournaments or is drunk at the time.

The secret to success in poker is to rig the odds in your favor.

lightningfast35

03-12-2007, 03:06 PM

#6 (permalink)

High Card

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 7

Since Sklansky says that T&P isn't directed only at cash games, below is my POV from Stars $6 turbo SNGs.

1) Sometimes you find people overplaying small/medium PPs for their stacks pre-flop and you're racing with AK. This is much more common than someone with AJ/AQ. I don't know how this applies to the bigger buy-in (and presumably tighter) SNGs because I don't have the bankroll to play in them.

2) At the low-level turbos, there are some players who I know are part of training sites and use the formulaic super-tight early and pushbot late strategy.

3) Obviously you can't buy-in short to a SNG, but sometimes when you take a beat and get knocked down to a short stack, you are in push/fold mode by the time blinds reach 50/100 (especially in turbos).

Please keep up the club zook, it's always helpful having other player's POVs on the game.

lockpull

03-20-2009, 06:08 PM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: OVERLAND PARK, KS

Posts: 303

I am getting into this way late but I just picked this book up a week ago and just finished this section last night. So here we go:

1. I think we should avoid big pots PF with AK against loose players becuase they are liable to have anything which gives their range many more outs than ours. We also get absolutley no information from a loose player calling our raise because they will do it with anything. Loose players will tend to call down to the river so bluffing/Cbetting them isn't going to work leaving us to rely on hitting out TPTK but still may find ourselves committed behind. The bigger the pot PF, the bigger the bet on the turn/river needs to be, the more you are committing yourself to stacking. I would say this is specific to loose tables. I would raise this at tight tables all day to:
1. Isolate
2. Steal blinds
3. Force tight players to tip their hand range as early as possible
4. Start building a big pot I can take away on later streets

2. They are all over FT. They tend to raise PF but fold flop or later on semi scary boards, they often fold to a 3bet unless they have close to nuts, they don't have a high steal%, tend to just call instead of getting real value out of their good hands.

3. I have done it a couple times with no real profit off of it. My plan was to play tight and get it all in PF/Flop with strong hands against loose players. It always seemed to me that bigger stacks (loose or tight) had an edge on you no matter what. The only equalizer you had was the all in, but if they had a hand worth calling that then you are usually (excluding QQ+) stacking off on a coinflip. Short stacking seems more relevant in limit than NL to me (some may disagree). As said early in the book, the size of the actual bet is not near as scary to OPP as the thought of a much bigger bet following later. If shortstacked you have taken that weapon out of you arsenol.

Decision making - When decisions are not based on information, it's called gambling

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NLHE T&P - Week 9 Discussion p. 183-205

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