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NLHE T&P - Week 11 Discussion p. 231-251
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zook
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03-19-2007, 07:14 PM
Post subject: NLHE T&P - Week 11 Discussion p. 231-251
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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We're getting into the Concepts section which is densely packed with great content. We'll cover fewer pages each week from here on out, since almost every concept is worthy of discussion. Again, my questions are just a jumping-off point, feel free to ignore them and post your own thoughts, questions, etc.
1. Are you in a game where you find it necessary to manipulate your opponents? How do you do it? Are you conscious of trading small mistakes for large ones?
2. In Concept #4, S&M say "Sometimes you should bluff to stop a bluff." Do you ever do this? How does it differ from a blocking bet?
3. In Concept #7, S&M recommend disguising your one pair hands unless you can profitably call big bets. How might you do this?
A couple concepts that I often need reminding of:
Quote:
Concept #1 - When in doubt, bet more.
Concept #2 - Don't give action to tight, trapping players. Know who not to play big pots against.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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1. At 1/2 and 2/4 FR I definitely feel the need to manipulate my image if I'm going to make money from the regulars. Since a lot of them are multi-tablers and presumably HUD-users, one easy way is having laggy stats. I run ~23/15, which isn't really laggy, but is more so than any regular in the 1/2 game and most in the 2/4 game. I think having these stats gets me more action right of the bat. I also make big bluffs vs. the nitty regulars occasionally, knowing that I'll win a good percentage and when they call me down, it's great for metagame.
3. The only way I do this is by c/c'ing or checking behind occasionally with TPGK/TPTK. This serves as pot control and to disguise my hand/induce bluffs.
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Halv
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03-27-2007, 05:29 PM
Post subject: Re: NLHE T&P - Week 11 Discussion p. 231-251
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#3 (permalink)
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pro crastinator
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: No hindsight for the blind.
Posts: 1,842
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
1. Are you in a game where you find it necessary to manipulate your opponents? How do you do it? Are you conscious of trading small mistakes for large ones?
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Manipulating opponents is definitely part of most games. 3-bets with non-premiums/smooth call with premiums occasionally to disguise my ranges, checking down in smallish pots where I could possibly win with a bluff to maintain a tight postflop image and increase bluff success in a larger pot, check behind a good hand on the flop to make the aggros fire turn and river, the list goes on. Most of these things aren't conscious decisions, and most of it serves an immediate purpose as well as a metagame purpose.
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2. In Concept #4, S&M say "Sometimes you should bluff to stop a bluff." Do you ever do this? How does it differ from a blocking bet?
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Can't really say that I do.
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3. In Concept #7, S&M recommend disguising your one pair hands unless you can profitably call big bets. How might you do this?
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As you said, pot control helps serve this purpose.
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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I don't play enough hands to really know anything - but as to 1) I have to believe that playing marginal EV hands for small pots is good for image. This means open raising suited junk in position, c-betting OOP into limped pots, bet/folding, floating and in general trying to see a reasonable number of flops (ca. 25%).
Many really LAG players take this to extremes of spewage early to collect late, but I don't like the variance, and I don't play against the same guys over and over again.
As for being deceptive with 1 pair hands... I don't really "get" this either, but I would think "pot control" is the opposite of deception here, unless you like to slow play monsters. So what he must mean is that you have to sometimes play 1-pair hands strong for balance? I guess playing draws weakly balances pot control TPGK hands.
I guess the difference between bluff to stop a bluff and block betting is when
a) you want a fold vs call
b) there are cards to come and you have outs, but no showdown value (semi-bluff to stop a bluff?)
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
As for being deceptive with 1 pair hands... I don't really "get" this either, but I would think "pot control" is the opposite of deception here, unless you like to slow play monsters. So what he must mean is that you have to sometimes play 1-pair hands strong for balance? I guess playing draws weakly balances pot control TPGK hands.
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This is an interesting take, and it's definitely at least part of what they had in mind. I didn't post the exact text, but it might clear things up:
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Concept No. 7: Don't telegraph that you have one pair unless you can profitably call big bets
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Elaboration:
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If you welcome a big bet with one pair because you expect that bet to be a bluff, then it's ok to telegraph your hand by playing it in a way that makes it obvious what you hold. Doing so might help induce a big bluff. But if you plan to fold your pair to a big bet or raise, you should make an effort to disguise your hand to discourage a big bluff. You can choose either to make it look weaker or stronger than one pair.
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Italics mine. So basically, if you're playing against a good, tagg opponent that expects you to check behind the turn for pot control with TPTK, disguising your hand might be firing a second barrel. If you have an aggro, spewy image and have been caught second-barreling, then disguising it might be betting the turn.
I don't do this third-level thinking enough, but I'm going to try.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
I guess the difference between bluff to stop a bluff and block betting is when
a) you want a fold vs call
b) there are cards to come and you have outs, but no showdown value (semi-bluff to stop a bluff?)
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In Sklansky's example, you're oop on the river and you have a mediocre hand and your opponent could have a wide range (air to good) and is capable of bluffing. To me, better here to stop a bluff sounds a lot like a block bet. But maybe with a block bet you have a better hand and your opponent's range is better and more defined (like good to nuts).
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lockpull
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: OVERLAND PARK, KS
Posts: 303
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1. The details depend on the OPPs but here we go:
This is an area this book has really opened up for me.
Against tight players, I raise their blinds/limps a lot with anything. Wait for them to start playing back or get frustrated and then wait for good hands/situations to come. Sometimes those good hands never seem to come at the right time so rinse and repeat as neccessay. Against LAGG's I let them hang themselves. I bet, call/raise their small raises, teach them that only big bets get me out. Frustrate them with little raises. That way when I have a showdown worthy hand they are not suspect by my calling/raising and tend to overbet to try to get me out. I have been hurt by this strategy before but as long as you are losing less than your are winning agianst this type you are winning the "battle of mistakes"
2. I do not use this near as much as I need to. I would say the difference between a bluff and a blocking bet is that a blocking bet is for a mediocre hand that I think my OPP might have beat but still worthy of seeing a showdown. The bluff bet is for when I have nothing (A high etc.) and I think my OPP is aggressive enough to bluff with air. In essence these two bets are the same but with different goals. A blocking bet I don't mind when I get called because I mainly didn't want to get blown off my hand. The bluff bet I really wanted them to fold but don't mind seeing a cheap showdown if I have to.
3. The ways would differ with the situation but you do not want your OPP knowing you will fold TPTK on a scary board or they will constantly put you to hard decisions. The only way to disguise (assuming you OPP have been paying attention) is to see how you have played this kind of hand before and do the oppisite (ie. play overcards like TPTK or TPTK like overcards.) You can also do things like fold very quickly, take a long time like you are agonizing over a draw. The ways differ but mainly anything that makes your opponet guess at your hand. It helps if he has seen you very aggressive/call happy with TPTK before.
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