Poker Forum

Over 1,232,000 Posts!

REGISTER
Subscribe to FTR web feed
Already Registered?      Username:    Password:   Remember      Forgot Password

Poker Forum

  > 

Tools Of Poker

  > 

H0H2 Part 9 - Discussion

  
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
zook
Old 10-09-2006, 06:47 PM     Post subject: H0H2 Part 9 - Discussion #1 (permalink)  
zook's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
zook
Everyone's favorite H0H chapter! Reading this for the first time really changed how I thought about and played NL tourneys. I'm just going to post a couple of very general questions, because what I'd really like to see here are hands posted from the various "zones" and moves made as a result. I'll go through my tourney hand histories and try to find a couple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Harrington
Be advised that playing correctly around inflection points is the most important single skill of no limit hold 'em tournaments.
1. How should your pre-flop strategy change in the Yellow Zone? Orange? Red?

2. Why is position so much less important in the Red Zone?
Reply With Quote

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
zook
Old 10-09-2006, 07:29 PM #2 (permalink)  
zook's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
zook
1. A couple of orange, borderline red zone hands.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Blinds-Antes (600/1200-50) - (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP3 (t21327)
CO (t40614)
Button (t15213)
SB (t18565)
Hero (t13265)
UTG (t25921)
UTG+1 (t69219)
MP1 (t35795)
MP2 (t45522)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9, Q.
7 folds, SB completes, Hero raises to 13265 (all-in), SB folds.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Blinds-Antes (600/1200-50) - (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 (t21277)
MP3 (t40564)
CO (t15163)
Button (t17315)
Hero (t14865)
BB (t25871)
UTG (t69169)
UTG+1 (t35745)
MP1 (t45472)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, 5.
7 folds, Hero raises to 14865 (all-in), BB folds.

2. Now I'm back safely in the high orange/low yellow zone can make standard pre-flop raises again:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Blinds-Antes (800/1600-50) - (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB (t17127)
BB (t42614)
UTG (t12613)
UTG+1 (t14765)
Hero (t29180)
MP2 (t17578)
MP3 (t12012)
CO (t91332)
Button (t12726)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 9, 9.
2 folds, Hero raises to t4000, 6 folds.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Blinds-Antes (1000/2000-75) - (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button (t34604)
SB (t39614)
BB (t21863)
Hero (t30705)
UTG+1 (t16828)
MP1 (t114345)
MP2 (t15076)
CO (t42564)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, K.
Hero raises to t5000, 7 folds.

3. A tough decision in the orange zone at the FT. I went for it because CO had been aggressive, I definitely didn't want to call and play it OOP, I figured I had some fold equity, 10K would be a huge addition to my stack, and the $ in this tourney didn't start getting really significant until you hit 4th place.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Blinds-Antes (1500/3000-75) - (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP2 (t10224)
CO (t74362)
Button (t101238)
SB (t58261)
Hero (t47072)
UTG (t24013)
UTG+1 (t88437)
MP1 (t18617)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, T.
4 folds, CO raises to t10500, 2 folds, Hero raises to t47072 (all-in), CO calls t36497.
Reply With Quote
Eric
Old 10-09-2006, 08:59 PM #3 (permalink)  
Eric's Avatar
Administrator
Administrator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: on my laptop
Posts: 1,778
Eric has disabled reputation
 1. Let's summarize what the "zones" mean. M=stack/(blinds+antes). For example, at the start of many Stars SnGs the stacks are 1500, the SB is 10, the BB is 20 and the antes are 0. Therefore at the start of these everyone has an M of 1500/(20+10+0) meaning everyone has an M of 50.
Here's how Harrington describes the Zone System:
Green Zone: M is 20 or more
Yellow Zone: M is 10-20
Orange Zone: M is 6-10
Red Zone: M is 1-5
Dead Zone: M is less than 1
[HOH2 pages 129 to 130]

Next we'll clarify what Harrington means by Q. Q is the relation of your stack to the average stack.

How should our pre-flop strategy change in Yellow? In the upper Yellow Zone our pre-flop strategy may not have to change much, especially if our Q is really high(our stack is a lot higher than the average stack in the tournament). In the lower Yellow Zone we need to avoid small suited connectors, especially if our Q is below 1(our stack is lower than the average stack in the tournament).

How should our pre-flop strategy change in Orange?
When I first read part 9 I used to play the same regardless of where I was in the Orange Zone. Now I treat the higher levels of the Orange Zone differently from the lower levels. Either way first-in vigorish is on my mind in the Orange Zone:
Quote:
an old idea assumes crucial importance: first-in vigorish. The concept is simple enough. Whoever is first to enter a pot has two ways to win.
1. First way: You can win because no one else contests the pot with you.
2. Second way: You can win a showdown against the other hand(or hands) that do contest the pot. [HOH2 page 137]
One difference in my Orange Zone play is that if I'm in the Red or the lower Orange I use first-in vigorish more than if I'm in upper Orange.

How should our pre-flop strategy change in Red?
First-in vigorish is even more important than in the Orange.

2. Normally your position after the flop is crucial. In the Red Zone there is no play for you after the flop. You either moved all-in pre-flop or you didn't.
Reply With Quote
cobere
Old 10-10-2006, 02:10 PM #4 (permalink)  
cobere's Avatar
Flush

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Fort Collins
Posts: 336
cobere
Send a message via AIM to cobere Send a message via Yahoo to cobere
Hi guys. Been looking forward to this discussion. Just wanted to post real quick and let you know, will post more later. More coffee first.
On moving up, properly rolled:
Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
You don't know if you're J-Fish or A Fish until you try.
 
Reply With Quote
taipan168
Old 10-10-2006, 02:37 PM #5 (permalink)  
Administrator
Administrator

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10,436
taipan168 is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to taipan168
Hope this isn't a derailing of the discussion, but in single table SNGs I think that your stack in terms of BBs is more relevant than M. I know this ignores antes at PS but by the time the antes kick in the table is usually shorthanded so the impact of the antes in terms of chips they cpst per round is diminished.

I think you can lose value by pushing AI in the upper Orange Zone (which could be up to 15x BB) compared to making a standard raise. That said, I think in the upper Orange zone you need to be more selective with the hands with which you're making standard raises, I think they need to have a bit more showdown value than if you had, say, a 30x BB (M=20) stack.
Reply With Quote
Dunk
Old 10-13-2006, 09:11 PM #6 (permalink)  
Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Metrowest Massachusetts
Posts: 131
Dunk
Just discovered this, and I'm looking forward to getting back to my book and perhaps more specifically talk about elements. I keep a bookmark to the summary of the zones when playing SNGs, just to keep reminding myself.

I think that at the stakes I play ($5.50 SNG 1 to 5 tables) failing to pay attention to this is a common mistake. People get into the M<10 and yet won't get aggressive. This may be because they're gotten to the final table of a multi-table SNG and are desperately hoping to cruise into the money.

I use a little Excel sheet in the corner of my screen that I update so I can see my M and Q. I play at FullTilt, and since it has 9 players per table I also have it show me the Effective M. You may well drift down to 5 or 6 players at a non-final table for multiple orbits before tables consolidate - I sometimes wonder how much I should react to the substantial difference between M and Effective M in these cases.

I agree that I do see a first-in advantage (I tend to think of it as "first mover" advantage from game theory / business / warfare). Position EP1 suddenly has a power all of its own - those blinds are about to hit you, but if your Q is decent and your hand is decent, you can make some good space and help promote an aggressive image.
Note: new guy and very open to constructive criticism, so go ahead and weigh in! I'm here to learn.
 
Reply With Quote
Reply
Latest Poker News
eugmac Old 02-10-2012, 10:26 AM    WPT Lucky Hearts Poker Open Starts Today in Florida
The World Poker Tour makes its return to the Sunshine State with the WPT Lucky Hearts Poker Open, a non-televised Season X Main Event to take place at the Seminole Hard Rock Hotel and Casino in Hollyw ...

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Thread Tools
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:29 PM.

Contact Us - Archive - Top

FTR Testimonials

All content
© FlopTurnRiver.com 		Advertising  |   Partners  |   Testimonials  |   T&C  |   Contact Us  |   FTR News & Press  |   Site Map  |   Search FTR

Full Tilt  |   Titan Poker  |   UltimateBet  |   Poker Stars  |   Ladbrokes Bonus  |   Sportsbook  |   Cake Poker  

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum
This is not a gambling website.