Flop Turn River

Online Texas Holdem Texas Holdem Strategy Poker Forum, News, Tools, & Videos

Join Our Forum

Poker Forum

Over 972,000 Posts!

H0H2 Part 8-1 (p. 1-62) Discussion

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display Modes

zook

09-23-2006, 11:07 PM Post subject: H0H2 Part 8-1 (p. 1-62) Discussion

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 3,628

We're starting off Vol. 2 Part 8, Making Moves, this week. It would be really cool if people start posting hand histories demonstrating strategies Harrington describes, like the moves in this chapter. I've started playing MTTs again, so I'll post some when I come across them, but I'm sure there are veterans out there with hundreds of examples to draw from.

Some questions for this chapter:

1. Harrington thinks that bluffs are usually most effective against medium-stacked opponents. Do you agree? Can you think of specific situations when this isn't true?

2. Do you agree that your c-bet size should average ~1/2 pot?

3. On p. 10 Harrington states that when last to act on the flop, checking behind your opponent with a strong draw is a better play than c-betting. Do you agree?

4. On p. 15-19 Harrington discusses defending against c-bets. What's your general strategy? How does it change with relative position?

5. Do you check/raise often? In what situations?

Feel free to answer whichever of these you want and add some of your own.

drmcboy

09-24-2006, 09:44 PM

#2 (permalink)

Administrator
Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 8,318

Quote:

3. On p. 10 Harrington states that when last to act on the flop, checking behind your opponent with a strong draw is a better play than c-betting. Do you agree?

I do not want to be moved off the hand if someone is wanting to CR a J. If someone has J8 and I hit, I am OK with losing a stack. Pretty rare the J checked twice against 4 opps.
UB Sun 200.

Getting Hand History Information...
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hand #35405116-40 at Sun5pm200-024 (No Limit tournament Hold'em)
Started at 24/Sep/06 17:38:29

Moraine is at seat 0 with 3520.
Daniel Komen is at seat 1 with 2495.
NotoriousBIL is at seat 2 with 4865.
FlipMaker is at seat 3 with 3195.
StillTippin is at seat 4 with 2235.
Rossicity is at seat 5 with 3025.
Wyndo is at seat 6 with 3015.
browerkid is at seat 7 with 4655.
geoff1299 is at seat 8 with 8965.
WILBIL is at seat 9 with 2045.
The button is at seat 1.

NotoriousBIL posts the small blind of 15.
FlipMaker posts the big blind of 30.

Moraine: 9s Th
Daniel Komen: -- --
NotoriousBIL: -- --
FlipMaker: -- --
StillTippin: -- --
Rossicity: -- --
Wyndo: -- --
browerkid: -- --
geoff1299: -- --
WILBIL: -- --

Pre-flop:

StillTippin folds. Rossicity folds. Wyndo folds.
browerkid folds. geoff1299 folds. WILBIL calls.
Moraine calls. Daniel Komen folds. NotoriousBIL
calls. FlipMaker checks.

Flop (board: Jc Jd 8h):

NotoriousBIL checks. FlipMaker checks. WILBIL
checks. Moraine checks.

Turn (board: Jc Jd 8h 5d):

NotoriousBIL checks. FlipMaker checks. WILBIL
checks. Moraine bets 75. NotoriousBIL folds.
FlipMaker folds. WILBIL folds. Moraine is returned
75 (uncalled).

Hand #35405116-40 Summary:

No rake is taken for this hand.
Moraine wins 120.
----------------------------------------------------------------

RIP 15

oomike01

09-25-2006, 02:18 AM Post subject: hoh - 8 make my move

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Mission Viejo, CA

Posts: 29

I think that bluffs on occasion are most effective against the medium/average stack. I also think that they are good against short stacks, as they don't want to play with me unless they have something to stand up with. I like the 2-3 person rule;it makes sense.

I'm not sure on #Q2. I would like to haer other people opinions on this. I do think that it should only be enough to get er done. I usually do half the pot if if preflop bet.\\

I would rather call then c/r raise draw when last(USUALY). Free card for my draw = yeah for my ass if i hit.

I don't really have one. DEFINITELY would like others opinions.

I check raise occasionally. When I feel I have good hand or feel that I could knock quite a few off with 2nd best. I like to have something to c/r. once in a while i bluff c/r.

oomike01

09-25-2006, 02:25 AM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Mission Viejo, CA

Posts: 29

[ast
FlipMaker is at seat 3 with 3195.
StillTippin is at seat 4 with 2235.
R 5.
7 ------ ----- 8
n ------- 5.
g \ / 5.
W \ -----------------------/ 5.
3 6
4444444444444444444444
NotoriousBIL posts the small blind of 15.
FlipMaker posts the big blind of 30.

Moraine: 9s Th
Daniel Komen: -- --
NotoriousBIL: -- --
FlipMaker: -- --
StillTippin: -- --
Rossicity: -- --
Wyndo: -- --
browerkid: -- --

geoff1299: -- --
WILBIL: -- --

Pre-flop:

StillTippin folds. Rossicity folds. Wyndo folds.
browerkid folds. geoff1299 folds. WILBIL calls.
Moraine calls. Daniel Komen folds. NotoriousBIL
calls. FlipMaker checks.

Flop (board: Jc Jd 8h):

NotoriousBIL checks. FlipMaker checks. WILBIL
checks. Moraine checks.

Turn (board: Jc Jd 8h 5d):

NotoriousBIL checks. FlipMaker checks. WILBIL
checks. Moraine bets 75. NotoriousBIL folds.
FlipMaker folds. WILBIL folds. Moraine is returned
75 (uncalled).

Hand #35405116-40 Summary:

No rake is taken for this hand.
Moraine wins 120.
----------------------------------------------------------------[/quote]

oomike01

09-25-2006, 02:29 AM

#5 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Mission Viejo, CA

Posts: 29

[ast
FlipMaker is at seat 3 with 3195.
StillTippin is at seat 4 with 2235.
R************************************5.
7***===********************===***8
7*************-------***************5.
g*****\ /********8
W******\ -----------------------/*********5.
8*********************************6
4444444444444444444444
NotoriousBIL posts the small blind of 15.
FlipMaker posts the big blind of 30.

Moraine: 9s Th
Daniel Komen: -- --
NotoriousBIL: -- --
FlipMaker: -- --
StillTippin: -- --
Rossicity: -- --
Wyndo: -- --
browerkid: -- --

zook

09-25-2006, 05:45 PM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 3,628

Quote:

Originally Posted by drmcboy

I do not want to be moved off the hand if someone is wanting to CR a J. If someone has J8 and I hit, I am OK with losing a stack. Pretty rare the J checked twice against 4 opps.
UB Sun 200.

This is a good example. Do you play it the same if the board is Jc 8h 2d?

drmcboy

09-25-2006, 06:26 PM

#7 (permalink)

Administrator
Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 8,318

more image dependent, but I am more likely to bet than board, to start builing a pot if I hit and someone has a modest hand like QJ/KJ and take the lead to maybe move them off later if they have something like 99 or A8 and I miss.

Also I think people are a lot less likely to CR on this board with TP than they are on the JJ board with trips - which I think it totally wrong. If I am OOP with a J on the JJ8 board, I will always lead out against multiple opps. if I am OOP with T9, I will always check, but often CR to try and rep the J and fold one Opp off an pair - this is especially true if the bet prices me out of a call. If there is a bet and a call I'll just come along because the price will usually be right and my FE is low.

RIP 15

fasin8ing

09-26-2006, 12:01 AM

#8 (permalink)

Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: Germany

Posts: 1,063

PG 29 " Back Alley Mugging "

When someone leads out on a flop of 8 6 2 and the turn is an Ace ... There was no PF raise ... If its checked to me and I bet this is an example of a BAM. Does everyone agree this would only work with one opponent in the hand? Or better yet HU ?

How much would you bet if you were pos and it were checked to you to accomplish taking down the pot?

Whats the difference between floating and BAM ?

Blinds are 100 / 200 - If it goes PF raise , you call , check check , check check , check .... Q on the river .. How much are you betting into a 800 dollar pot? What is a convincing bet if you have say 12 X the BB left in your stack ?

PG 33..

Delayed C bets - Is this smart only if you have overs or a draw? Is there any other examples on when it would be good to use this? If anyone has an example please use it .. Iam thinking you hit the flop and had something like TPGK and you check it then bet the turn when something lower hit or a non scary card... Am I right?

Eric

09-26-2006, 03:36 AM

#9 (permalink)

Administrator
Administrator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: on my laptop

Posts: 1,752

1. I agree that bluffs tend to work best against medium stacks. I think they work well against short stacks too when we're on the bubble.

2. The c-bet can be more than half the pot at times, depends on the situation.

3. In limit, semi-bluff bets with draws are profitable. In no limit Harrington is right that they are risky because of big check raises.

5. No, I don't check raise often. I usually bet out. There are times when a CR is necessary though, for example if I'm playing against opponents who know my style.

On a side note, here is one of my favorite quotes from part 8:

Quote:

Some authors tell you to be careful when you flop the middle or bottom trips, because you might lose to higher trips. Nonsense. If you get knocked out of the tournament because you lost in a set-over-set confrontation, then it just wasn't your tournament. When your set gets outflopped, you're supposed to lose a lot of money. When I hear someone telling a story about how he shrewdly laid down middle set after some intricate chain of reasoning convinced him he was beaten, my quick (but silent) reaction is "Idiot." [HOH2 page 38]

zook

09-27-2006, 08:57 AM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 3,628

Quote: