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Eric
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09-11-2006, 05:07 AM
Post subject: H0H1 Part 7 Discussion
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#1 (permalink)
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Hopefully zook will add some more questions to this list.
1. Harrington discusses how bet size impacts the pot odds given to an opponent with a drawing hand.
Quote:
My Bet Amt ..... Opponent's Odds
(2/1)xPot ..... 3:2
(1/1)xPot ..... 2:1
(3/4)xPot ..... 7:3
(2/3)xPot ..... 5:2
(1/2)xPot ..... 3:1
(1/3)xPot ..... 4:1
(1/4)xPot ..... 5:1
[HOH pg 346]
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Everyone knows that betting the pot gives your opponent 2:1 odds but some of the other amounts are less obvious. Which of these bet amount to pot odds relationships do you have memorized?
2. Harrington says that he likes to bet between 2/3 and 3/4 the pot on the turn if he puts his opponent on a 9-out flush draw. How do you feel about that range?
3. Harrington says that he only needs to bet about 1/2 the pot on the turn against an 8-out straight draw. How do you feel about that amount?
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A10Chief
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Germany
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1. I don't really have any of them "memorized" so to speak (I don't randomly whip them out to tell the donks at my home game how bad they are). I do usually do a rough calculation before I make a bet. First thing I consider is pot odds, but I usually consider my and my opps. stack size as well, as in, if no scare card comes, how much do I want to leave behind to bet on the turn/river.
2. Well, a 3/4 pot bet feels about right to me. A 2/3 pot bet giving 5:2 odds will deny express odds, but if the scare card comes, sometimes villain will bluff the flush. Therefore you have to call in certain situations, giving some implied odds on the end. So I like the 3/4 pot bet much more.
3. Much like #2, I prefer a slightly larger bet in this instance because of the implied odds you offer. I like to really charge the draws, especially early on, because many players will call big bets, even all-ins for the opportunity to acquire a big stack.
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There's three types of people in the world...those who can count, and those who can't.
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Eric
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by A10Chief
2. Well, a 3/4 pot bet feels about right to me. A 2/3 pot bet giving 5:2 odds will deny express odds, but if the scare card comes, sometimes villain will bluff the flush. Therefore you have to call in certain situations, giving some implied odds on the end. So I like the 3/4 pot bet much more.
3. Much like #2, I prefer a slightly larger bet in this instance because of the implied odds you offer. I like to really charge the draws, especially early on, because many players will call big bets, even all-ins for the opportunity to acquire a big stack.
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I know what you mean. Often times it seems like I'm facing action junkies so I like to charge them extra if I notice they like to stay in until the river.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Thanks for getting this going Eric. Here are a few more and I'll respond to yours shortly.
4. On pages 340-341, why does Harrington say that Example 2 is much more complicated than Example 1? Is it possible to be that confident in your read of Qx vs. TT in these hands?
5. On p. 348, Harrington discusses what to do when the "bad card hits", say, the three-flush on the river. In Point #3 he says that if an opponent who is not a known bluffer offers you 2:1 pot odds or better (so if he bets pot or less) you should call. Do you agree?
6. Just a good point, not a question... on pages 362-363 Harrington discusses play when you have the nuts on the turn and there's a draw on the board. He points out that many novices get tricky and check, hoping the draw hits and they can take a stack on the river. But since a flush draw will only hit 1 in 4 times, the better play is to bet and get money from the chaser while you can, because you're getting nothing when the draw doesn't hit.
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zook
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09-11-2006, 06:11 PM
Post subject: Re: [url=http://www.flopturnriver.com/reviews/Poker-Books-Ha
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#5 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Eric
1. Which of these bet amount to pot odds relationships do you have memorized?
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1/3, 1/2, full. I usually make 3/4 pot c-bets, but for some reason 7:3 hasn't stuck in my mind 
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Eric
2. Harrington says that he likes to bet between 2/3 and 3/4 the pot on the turn if he puts his opponent on a 9-out flush draw. How do you feel about that range?
3. Harrington says that he only needs to bet about 1/2 the pot on the turn against an 8-out straight draw. How do you feel about that amount?
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Both of these are read-dependent for me, I try to bet as much as I think villain will call. But I think as general guidelines these are good. I tend to go with 1/2 to 2/3 for flush draws in position against an unknown opponent. Out of position I usually make it 3/4 because a bluff is more likely.
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A10Chief
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 285
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Thanks for getting this going Eric. Here are a few more and I'll respond to yours shortly.
4. On pages 340-341, why does Harrington say that Example 2 is much more complicated than Example 1? Is it possible to be that confident in your read of Qx vs. TT in these hands?
5. On p. 348, Harrington discusses what to do when the "bad card hits", say, the three-flush on the river. In Point #3 he says that if an opponent who is not a known bluffer offers you 2:1 pot odds or better (so if he bets pot or less) you should call. Do you agree?
6. Just a good point, not a question... on pages 362-363 Harrington discusses play when you have the nuts on the turn and there's a draw on the board. He points out that many novices get tricky and check, hoping the draw hits and they can take a stack on the river. But since a flush draw will only hit 1 in 4 times, the better play is to bet and get money from the chaser while you can, because you're getting nothing when the draw doesn't hit.
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5. As a general rule, I would probably dump this, but I think it's situation specific. If opp is not a known bluffer, then I can't see putting any more chips in when I think I'm behind. With that said, a sharp opponent will often bluff the flush in position, and sometimes OOP. I would say against the unknown internet opponent I would be more likely to call the smaller bet on the end, just from a mathmatical perspective, but in the local games I play I would be more likely to call the bigger bet (because nearly everyone I know will make a tiny bet with a huge hand, so as not to chase away their action).
6. This one is another case of charging those draws. Lots of players don't have a clue about pot odds, so I like to get that money in there. I would imagine this is highly dependant on stack sizes, too. I haven't done any EV calculations, but I can imagine that with deep stacks it is more profitable to check the turn if you think 1 time in 5 you will get their entire stack on the river. However, with shorter stacks, you should bet the turn and try to tie them to the pot, hoping they might catch top pair on the river or something that will convince them to go ahead and donk off that last little bit they have left. Thoughts?
BTW, I just got in from Afghanistan and my personal stuff (including all my poker books) is still en route. Bear with me and when it gets here I will be able to contribute a little more to the discussions. Thanks.
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There's three types of people in the world...those who can count, and those who can't.
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Eric
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4. One of the reasons Example 1 is less complicated is because our opponent is a relatively weak player. When our opponent is weak we don't need to worry as much about how he sees us. In Example 2 the check option is interesting because our opponent might see us as weak and then interpret our river bet as a steal attempt.
We can be fairly confident with the Qx read but the TT read is more difficult imo.
5. If I am heads up with an opponent and he represents the nuts with a bet on the river then I can often times call with a second-best hand if the odds are 3:1 or better. When the odds are between 2:1 and 3:1 I have a difficult decision and I consider many things while playing the hand back in my head(our M ratios, images etc). Note that if I'm not heads up then I am less likely to consider a river bet as a bluff because most good players know that it is more dangerous to bluff against multiple players.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by A10Chief
6. This one is another case of charging those draws. Lots of players don't have a clue about pot odds, so I like to get that money in there. I would imagine this is highly dependant on stack sizes, too. I haven't done any EV calculations, but I can imagine that with deep stacks it is more profitable to check the turn if you think 1 time in 5 you will get their entire stack on the river. However, with shorter stacks, you should bet the turn and try to tie them to the pot, hoping they might catch top pair on the river or something that will convince them to go ahead and donk off that last little bit they have left. Thoughts?
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Just because you bet the turn and charge them to draw doesn't mean you won't get their stack when the flush hits on the river! In fact it might make it a little easier to get it. The key in this situation is not betting so much that you keep them from chasing and not betting so little that it looks suspicious to a thinking player. 1/2 pot or a little less seems about right to me.
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Eric
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1. I don't have these memorized individually but I did memorize a simple formula that tells me the pot odds on the fly. I think of the bet amount as a fraction of the pot and then do the formula in my head:
Here are some examples:
1/1=odds of 1+1:1=2:1
3/4=odds of 3+4:3=7:3
2/3=odds of 2+3:2=5:2
1/4=odds of 1+4:1=5:1
Please do not confuse this with percentage to odds conversions, that is not what this formula is about. For example, if I have a 25% chance of something or 1/4 then my odds are 3:1.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Good formula. But I think it should read:
x/y=odds of x+y:x
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Eric
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zook, thanks for the catch, I updated it.
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