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| zook |
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Onward and upward. 1. On p. 124: Quote:
2. On p. 126 Dan talks about standard pre-flop winning probabilities. Did any of these surprise you? Do you have them memorized? 3. On p. 132 Quote:
4. In Hand 4-5, pages 152-3, do you agree with his reasoning? Do you always take the presence of active players behind you into account when making a decision? 5. In Hand 4-9, pages 165-7, what do you think of his reasoning after the river comes down? What would you do in this situation? If there's demand I can post the hands. |
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| Eric |
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1. I agree. When my M is high I play tight most of the time. However, on the button I am a little bit more relaxed with the starting requirements for hands. I think some folks get carried away on the button though. For example, playing any 2 suited cards is a mistake in part because flushes are more obvious than straights when they come on board. Anyone can recognize when the board gets 3 of a suit for a flush but something like 28259 is a little more subtle when you're holding 67 offsuit for a straight (you have to worry about someone having 4 of a kind or full houses because of the deuces on board but your straight is harder to see than a flush). 2. Don't have them all memorized but none of the probabilities surprised me. 3. I like his law of bluffing. Like many questions in poker the answer is "it depends", there are always exceptions. 4. I agree. This used to get me in trouble but I've learned (the hard way) to take other active players seriously. 5. That situation probably wouldn't happen in the first place for me because I would have bet more on the flop and turn so I would have been more pot-committed by the river. That said, I agree with Harrington, in tournaments it is harder to throw away hands like trip kings when a flush is on board than in ring games. |
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| stormshelterdave |
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This chapter is hurting my head!  I am going to re-read it and then post. |
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DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed in this post are those of a fish. I will not be held accountable for anyone who actually takes my posts seriously.
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| clairvoyant |
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1. I agree with this. While it may not vary up my pre-flop play a lot, it does take importance on my post flop play now. I consider the concealability of my draw with how I have bet this round, and who I am playing against. I always play live, and I know the people's styles who I play against, so that helps a lot. 2. Nah, these all seem fine. I dont have any memorized. 3. no answer 4. Now I do, but before I would quite often make a poor call, and then be raised by someone behind me and insta-fold, with an insta-loss of $1.00. 5. I like his reasoning, but I would not go all-in. Seems too risky for me, but then again, his play was probably the correct one anyways. The opponents betting really seemed like a draw play, too. |
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| zook |
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1. This line of thinking makes me more likely to call 3/4 or pot-sized bets on the flop with OESDs than FDs. Opponents with often shut down when a flush hits the board, denying your implied odds. I'm also less likely to call pre-flop raises with Axs or Kxs than with SCs, unless there are other callers in front of me already. Finally I occasionally limp or call raises with unsuited connectors 87+ in position because implied odds for straights are high. 2. I was a little surprised that two higher cards are only a 5:3 favorite over two lower cards. I don't have them memorized. 3. I think bluffing is more prevalent in online play, so I automatically adjust it upward a little. I think 10% is pretty accurate for my play, but it depends how you define big bet. If you mean all-in, or pot-committing bets, I'd say my bluff percentage is less than 10%. It's hard for me to say how the law should affect my decision-making, which is why I asked. I guess it should sway tough call/fold decisions toward calling, but I can't think of a practical way to apply the law. 4. Good reasoning and I'm getting better at taking active players behind me into account. Not to mention using the presence of active players to make squeeze plays. 5. I'm not sure I agree with his reasoning. He says that if you are willing to play for stacks with your trip K's then you're better off leading the river. But I think a lot of players will represent the flush on the river if you show weakness by checking, in which case c/c'ing or c/r'ing is better than leading. He says you don't have a read here, but with one, I'd c/r an aggressive player and bet 200-300 into a passive one. |
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| Random_Hero |
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This part was hurting my head too... lol With regards to example 2. How many people use Harringtons "equation" to see if a call/fold is the correct play? I have tried to start doing this using poker stove and a calculator (im sh*t at maths lol) but I find it takes a lot of time doing the math and online you dont get a lot of time to make your move. I imagine it'll get easier the more I do it but was just wondering if most people used this method. cheers. |
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| cag8f |
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Hey guys. I understand odds calculations when I'm up against a single player: Put him on a range of hands, calculate my odds of winning against those hands, and compare them to the pot odds I'm getting (or giving). The mathematics is relatively straightforward to me, even when including implied odds. But I'm a little confused on what to do when up against multiple players. Specifically, what if I hold a marginal hand (e.g. KJ or Ax) and there are many limpers before me? After a certain amount of limpers, the pot odds I'm getting require me to call, right? (Harrington alludes to this but never really explains it in-depth) When is that point? Are there any formulas that help me decide when the pot odds are "too enticing" for me and that I should also limp? If so, do my hole cards matter, or is it just kind of a random probability issue at this point? OR do I try to put each player on a range of hands and calculate my odds of winning against each of them? OR: I understand that at a 9 person table, as more players limp into the pot, my odds of winning approach 8:1. Should I use this limit as a guide, i.e. if pot odds approach 8:1, then I can limp in with any 2 cards? Do implied odds become more important, or less? At a certain point do I just play with ANYTHING? Sorry if this post didn't flow very well, but it was difficult explaining what I knew and what my exact question was. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated because it is giving me trouble when I play. |
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| zook |
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| This would be a good question to post in the NLHE Strategies forum. I don't have a great answer for you... I have a few guidelines, but they aren't math based. If I'm in late position, two players have limped in front of me AND there are no aggro players left to act behind me, I'm limping with a wide range: suited connectors down to 32, suited gappers, unsuited connectors down to 87 and suited aces. You could probably widen your range even more if you're on the button or if there are more than two limpers in front. | |||
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| A10Chief |
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| I find that in the tournaments I play (low buyin MTT on Stars), you will generally win a small pot or lose a big one in the first few levels with premium hands preflop. The bets are so small compared to the stacks that unless you overbet, many times you will get sucked out on. With that in mind, you will often win big pots but lose small ones with small connectors, one-gappers, etc. in position. NOTE THIS IS ONLY IN THE FIRST COUPLE OF LEVELS. I have started to get involved a lot more early on with these type hands, and it has several benefits to me. I can usually either flop big and stack someone or take down a few small pots no one seems to care about, which gives me some momentum and builds the stack a little. This is important b/c later on I'm tightening way up and looking to double through or get all in with shorter stacks who are desperate and who's range I will be crushing. Another benefit of this is it allows me to get a feel for the table, which is more difficult for me when I am folding everything. Sometimes (not as much as you'd think, but sometimes) this will also give you an image as a maniac, and will get monsters paid off. In general, I think I do much better when I am loose early on, especially preflop and on the flop, when the bets are small. | |||
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There's three types of people in the world...those who can count, and those who can't.
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| cardplayer52 |
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| cardplayer52 |
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1. pre-flop i take lots of factors into consideration. i like to play low pocket pairs and small suited connectors(small to avoid being dominated). but in order to be able to play these lots of conditions have to be met. position, stack sizes how many in the pot(or likely to be in), how aggressive or passive the table is. am i likely to get free cards from a passive player? am i likely to get paid off? how deciptive is my hand? these are all big factors as well as what % of my stack am i risking. 2. i think i was surprised at the 2 middle cards being 45%(eg JT vs A4) but it has been a long time since i first read this. yes i got these all down cold. also the under pairs arnt always the favorite.(eg JTs acually beats 22) 3. i think the 10% rule is probably true. although i don't really use it.(i may try though). when i consider a hand range i may throw in a hand he may bluff with.((eg i got KJ on a J75 board and all the betting tells me over pair or set. say i put him on AA-JJ or 77,55 i may give him AK as well as it would make since pre(w/his 3bet say) and he could be bluffing at the pot with it here.)). i'm thinking just throwing in random bluff hands into his range probably makes the 10% alot higher in lots of instances. so i'm going to start trying this 10% rule. 4. i don't quite agree entirely with all his reasoning. it all depends how the table is playing i guess(and more importantly how aggresive the SB is). if by calling i can expect lots of callers then yes i would normally call(expecting good pot odds and implied odds as well). how the limper reacts to a 3bet would help. because here w/55 and a short stack in the blinds i would be more inclined to 3bet(putting more pressure on the SB and making a call of his shove easier) or fold. here i'm leaning more toward folding. in a later position i would more likely 3bet if there was only 1 limper in. also dan mentions if there was only 1 in the pot it would be an easy call based on pot odds. i would call but not totally based on pot odds.(a pot of 1,510 and 610 to call) but i would call if it were heads up because i feel the risk would be worth the reward. here a stack of 3k if i lose i'm still competive but if i win i got a big chip lead on the table and can apply pressure to the rest of the table. as well as knock a player out. setting a tone to the players. but all in all i try to tighten up if there is a short stack in the blinds. 5. i'm not sure if i agree with the might as well bet all-in if i would call an all-in. because if you go all-in here i think you only get called by a better hands(a flush or boat)and not weaker ones(the J9s). i don't think the J9s calls a shove but may try to vbet/bluff if checked to though. i'm more likely to protect my hand against a draw on earlier streets. and if by calling the all-in i give them the implied odds they needed to call the turn then i more likely to fold. |
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