H0H1 Intro & Part 1 Discussion

In this hand i probably would have made a big re-raise against an aggresive player like sammy, because his raise doesn't really,IMO, mean that he has good hand, knowing how he plays i would have to assume that most of the time i'll have him beat right now, and if i re-raise then i will get position in the hand if Moneymaker folds and if Moneymaker decided to stay after a raise and re-raise then he would definately holds aces, kings, or queens and then whether i hit the flop or not then i would play the hand really slowly and defensively if i hit my ace, but as the flop happened then i would have lost a big pot instead of the smaller amount harrington actually lost.

Originally Posted by zook

Nothing too complicated in these sections, imo, but a nice introduction. I wish every new FTR member was forced to read the "What is a hand?" section. A few questions to get things started...

1. How does the lack of a betting limit change your approach to no-limit vs. limit hold 'em? How different should your strategy be in the two games? (Huge questions that could produce books of material, I know, but let's get some ideas out there for everyone who thinks the two games aren't very different.)

2. Do you think about all of the "Elements of a Hand" Harrington describes on p. 18-23 before making a decision? Which ones do you think you over- or undervalue?

3. In the sample hand (p. 24-32), how would you have played each hand differently? (Forgetting that you know other players' hands.)

4. What do you think of Harrington's play in the sample hand? What do you think of his reasoning behind it?

5. Do you use probe bets as defined by Harrington? If you do, please post a hand history or two for discussion.

Feel free to respond to any or all of these, ignore them, or post your own!

1. in limit games, you usually have less creativity because of the inability to bet what you please...

2. i dont usually remember to think about all of them..tha main ones are the position, stack size and player type of the opponent

3.---
4----

5. i usually use probe bets to take down a small pot and see where my opponent is at and if they weakly call(read based) ill try to take away the pot later

could you post the sample hand and dan's thought process?

Originally Posted by midas06

could you post the sample hand and dan's thought process?

I should have time to post the hand tonight. There are several pages of analysis from Dan though, so I can't post all that. You should buy the book!

hey midas, i'll scan the harringtons thoughts on the handand the hand it self, later tonite when i get a chance.

Just my thoughts:

1. What’s the status of the tournament?
Everyone should pay attention to this, whether they do or not is one thing. In the under $20 MTT you don’t see this at all, first hand when 3-4 people go AI then you know your in for a donk fest. As you get close to the bubble, I agree with Mr. Harrington people TIGHTEN up just to get in the money. I was the same way, but have come to realize that you have to open up here and steal blinds, basically change your game to the aggressive. If I spend $10 to get in a tournament, what is the big stink about making $14.78 for 4 hours of play. I learned this the hard way but by reading books and this forum it has helped my game alot, but I by no means am a world class player!

2. How many players are at your table?
Yes this is important, if your at a full table 9-10 people, if your in EP or MP - A T offsuit is not playable, but the later you get in a tournament and your in MP at a 6-7 handed table A T offsuit is very playable.

3. Who are the players at your table?
IMO very hard to do at a small buy in MTT. That’s why I don’t like to play alot of hands early in a MTT, just to try to get a read on some of the players and see what there tendencies are. But it is still hard to do with players being moved all the time!

4. How does your stack compare to the blinds and antes?
Early in a tournament I don’t look at this alot I look at what the avg. chips are in the tournament, if I can stay in par with that for the first 3 hours I should be OK. But as the tournament progresses you have to look at your M (thats book 2 right) and every other M at your table.

5. How big are the other stacks at your table?
Again I don’t look at this very early in a tournament, mainly because 80% of the time these are just donks that tripled up with Q T offsuit with an all in call. But this is very important later in the tournament. You have to try to get involved with the smaller than you stacks or the middle stacks but if you can stay away from the big stacks (unless you have monster) than you should be ok. If your raising with AJ and the BB is the big stack your asking for trouble, because when he comes back and pushes, you will have to fold.

6. Where do you sit in relation to the aggressive and passive players?
Again tough to do early but hopefully you have the bullies on your right and the softies on your left. When you min raise from the BB with K9s and the 2-3 people that called you all fold put that in the memory bank, but if someone comes over the top with a reraise put that in the memory bank also.

7. What bets have been made in front of you?
This is definitely a big one, the gap concept applies here (for me anyway) especially early in a MTT. I like Harringtons example I think it is TT, it looks good when you have 5 folders in front of you, but if your facing bet-raise-reraise that puppy is trash!

8. How many active players are left after you act?
Early on this doesn’t apply to me, I generally play very tight in a MTT the first hour, sometimes 2. I may try to limp with suited connectors or small pairs but if it is raised behind me than I am folding, I want to see a cheap flop with the hopes of doubling up. You have to watch what kind of cards people are showing down too, In small buy-ins (MTT) you will see all kind of crap being played and you just have to put that in the memory bank or take a note or two. Later in a tournament again I try to stay away from messing with the bigstack unless I want to mess with him/her, because I want that reraise - because vie picked up KK.

9. What is your position at the table after the flop?
IMO this is the main one, how many articles can you read that talk about position in a MTT, so I won’t even elaborate on this one. But again this is the most important one to me!

10. What are your cards?
This is big one to me also. Where there are times like Harrington says that you can play virtually any 2 cards at any given time - when the time is right. If the tourney is near the bubble and you have 2 limpers in front of you - they asked for it by limping so raise 5X the blind or push it. 90% of the time you will take down the pot right there!


This one for me was really hard to grasp at first, playing to many hands and playing hands out of position. MTT is about patience, if you play in a MTT and don’t have the 4-6 hours to play in it DONT PLAY!! I don’t know how many times I would get in a tournament starting at 9:00 est and look at the clock and it is 1:00am and there still is 100 people involved and I have to get up in 4-5 hours. Than I would say I’m pushing with the next hand only to be going to bed about 3 minutes later wondering why I spent $10-25 bucks on that tournament and do something that @#$% stupid. Heck the 180 person MTT on stars take 3-4 hours to play, so what do you expect when 1200 are in it, granted 1/2 will be gone after the first hour and half of those after the 2nd hour but that is still 300 people left.



Fire away with the criticism!!
I’m a newbie,
ZD

Thanks for the post ZD, welcome to FTR.

midas, here's the sample hand. Harrington wrote pages of commentary, but I'm not going to retype that here.

2003 WSOP Final Table

SB: Amir Vahedi ( $865,000 )
BB: Tomer Benevenisti ( $645,000 )
UTG: Sam Farha ( $1,530,000 )
MP1: Yong Pak ( $215,000 )
MP2: Jason Lester ( $1,161,000 )
CO: Dan Harrington ( $1,080,000 )
Button: Chris Moneymaker ( $2,894,000 )

Everyone posts antes [$2,000]
Amir Vahedi posts small blind [$10,000].
Tomer Benevenisti posts big blind [$20,000].

Dealt to Amir Vahedi :Td:
Dealt to Sam Farha
Dealt to Dan Harrington :Ah: :Ks:
Dealt to Chris Moneymaker :Ts:

Sam Farha raises [$60,000].
Yong Pak folds.
Jason Lester folds.
Dan Harrington calls [$60,000].
Chris Moneymaker calls [$60,000].
Amir Vahedi calls [$50,000].
Tomer Benevenisti folds.
Pot = $274,000
** Dealing Flop **
Amir Vahedi checks.
Sam Farha bets [$80,000].
Dan Harrington folds.
Chris Moneymaker folds.
Amir Vahedi calls [$80,000].
Pot = $514,000
** Dealing Turn **

Amir Vahedi bets [$300,000].
Sam Farha calls [$300,000].
Pot = $1,114,000
** Dealing River **

Amir Vahedi checks.
Sam Farha bets [$300,000].
Amir Vahedi folds.

Answering my own questions seems pretty masturbatory, but at least that means I should be good at it, and maybe it will stimulate some discussion.

1. I'm hoping someone with a lot of limit experience will tackle this question. To risk stating the obvious, limit allows you to play more speculative hands because you often are getting the correct pot odds to do so. In no-limit an opponent is free to bet an amount that gives you incorrect pot odds and forces you to make your decision based implied odds. In this sense, no-limit requires more feel and limit requires more arithmetic. There are lots of other differences (i.e. starting hand requirements and post-flop hand valuation) I'm not that familiar with.

2. ZD posted the elements... after reading HOH1&2 I really started paying more attention to #1 (tourney stage) and #4 (stack size or "M"). I still have some trouble remembering to factor in #5 (other stack sizes) into my decision making process. For example, if I have a medium stack and 88 in the BB and the table big stack looks like he's stealing from LP... I'll often push without thinking about whether I have any fold equity in a situation that could easily be a coinflip.

3. In Sam's position I might check and slowplay here. There aren't really any draws on the board, unless Chris or Amir called with 87, and it seems like a tough flop to get any action, so it might be nice to give a free card and see if anyone catches up. I don't think slowplaying fits with Sam's image though, so it might be suspicious.

4. I definitely re-raise the flop with Dan's AKo. I do understand and appreciate his reasoning, it just seems like barring Sam hitting his set like he did, a re-raise sets him up for a c-bet and winning a good sized pot on the flop. It's clear he likes to play a low variance style though.

5. Not really. Something I should probably add to my repertoire.

about #3 the type of player that sammy is everyone on the table would expect to make a continuation bet with a flop like this, because he would assume that this totally missed harrington and Moneymaker, seeing as how solid the cards the play are and Amir might have hit something. See i think harrington, knows how sammy plays might have gotten suspiction if sammy checked that flop, so IMO it is a better play by sammy to make a bet that would that wouldn't look suspiction, so i believe against top players this is the best way to play it.

Originally Posted by zook

2. Do you think about all of the "Elements of a Hand" Harrington describes on p. 18-23 before making a decision? Which ones do you think you over- or undervalue?

I value Harrington's element #4 very highly

4. How does your stack compare to the blinds and antes?

I always look at the ratio of my stack divided by the sum of the blinds and antes(M ratio), this is one crucial difference between tournaments and ring games. In ring I always try to buy in for the max and leave or buy more chips if my M ratio gets low. Tournaments don't give you this option(except a re-buy tourney of course). I try to follows Harrington's advice in HOH2 very closely as far as adjusting my strategy in accordance with my M ratio.

I think spending some more time on the probe bets would be very useful; like zook its something i hardly ever use (read: never). Not in an SNG anyway. Are they more suited for MTT's ( after the first hour / two hours) where u have more fold equity? (since in my experience) ppl tend to play a lot tighter specially with over cards.

What flops are good for probe bets vs continuation bets?
What opp r good to probe bet? Weak tight i guess but ne1 got ne other ideas?
Is there any room for probe bets in SNG's? Do they become +Ev at a certain blind level?
Sorry my above questions are covered in HOH1; I read it when it first came out, and have literally just lent it out to a mate.

Quote, "4. I definitely re-raise the flop with Dan's AKo. I do understand and appreciate his reasoning, it just seems like barring Sam hitting his set like he did, a re-raise sets him up for a c-bet and winning a good sized pot on the flop. It's clear he likes to play a low variance style though. "


There's a lot to talk about but i chose this particual hand because of the reraise comments w/ AK by a few players on the flop. This is a big no no to me because the only two possible hands Dan would be representing would be 10 10 and JJ if he had done this move. He's known to be a tight player in the table so JUST calling the preflop raise would put him on big cards like AK AQ 10 10 JJ, but since he got a semi loose player yet to act Amir on the blinds that would call the raise from farha and a call from dan (pot odds), he would certainly not want 3 players w/ 10 10 JJ let alone 4 players in the pot, so he would prolly raise w/ 10 10 or JJ to isolate Farha in position.....other players would know this and know he doesn't hold those cards. so raising farha and two active players behind you plus you still don't know if farha has a big pair or not is no good to me.
i'm not saying i'm right, just wanted to show what went through my head while reading the hand.
the question i would ask is...if you raise farha on the flop, what are you trying to represent? AA QQ KK JJ 1010 99.....all those don't fit how you played the hand preflop so other players will be able to read that based on the type of player he is and the type of players in the table.
again, just my 2cents and my 2cents is often worthless =)

marcel

Originally Posted by SaulPaul

I think spending some more time on the probe bets would be very useful; like zook its something i hardly ever use (read: never). Not in an SNG anyway. Are they more suited for MTT's ( after the first hour / two hours) where u have more fold equity? (since in my experience) ppl tend to play a lot tighter specially with over cards.

What flops are good for probe bets vs continuation bets?
What opp r good to probe bet? Weak tight i guess but ne1 got ne other ideas?
Is there any room for probe bets in SNG's? Do they become +Ev at a certain blind level?
Sorry my above questions are covered in HOH1; I read it when it first came out, and have literally just lent it out to a mate.

I've been doing some reading and while Harrington advocates probe bets a few other pros don't. The problem is that if you only make a probe bet (defined by Harrington as a 1/4-1/2 pot-sized bet from OOP when you didn't raise pre-flop) when you DON'T have a strong hand (set or TPTK) observant players will be constantly raising them and pushing you off your hand. So against weak/tight players a probe bet seems like a good idea with middle pair or a draw, against stronger players you may want to go with a larger bet, c/r or c/f. Or make sure you're occasionally betting 1/4-1/2 pot with strong hands too. The big advantage of probe bets is that they don't have to be successful very often to be profitable. If you're betting 1/3 the pot, opponent only has to fold more than 1/4 of the time to make it profitable. Plus you've set the price for your draw if your opponent flat calls.

I'm not sure about the MTT vs. SNG question. I think probe bets could definitely have a place in SNGs, but like in MTTs, you'll want to pick tight or passive opponents.

Posting to show my interest in this discussion.
Ive had the book ages now so itll be good to go back into it.

Anway. Just 2 points i found in the chapter which drew my attention.

Calling with the AK
and the probe betting.


Calling seems okay to me as i would usually do it at the start and early stages of an SNG or MTT because it lowers volatilty. If im right it was early at the start of that final table. His stack is deep enough to call and use position so i wouldnt argue that it should be a raise.

Probe bets i dont use so often. In SNGs i would bet half the pot most times if im unsure of villians holdings. I think in MTT it can be more useful especially in live MTT where opponents get more time to think what the bet might mean.

My 2c and later chapter will have more discussion.

I was wondering what parts of HOH apply to online cash games the most??

Thanks.

Originally Posted by KrazyBluffer

I was wondering what parts of HOH apply to online cash games the most??

I guess pre-flop stuff, although he advocates more mixing of raises and calls than I think is necessary in cash games. And most of his hand examples where the stacks are relatively deep (more than 50X the BB). Any time he advocates a play "because it's a tournament and with the blinds constantly increasing you have to acquire chips as fast as you can" then it probably isn't applicable to cash games

Originally Posted by zook

Originally Posted by KrazyBluffer

I was wondering what parts of HOH apply to online cash games the most??

I guess pre-flop stuff, although he advocates more mixing of raises and calls than I think is necessary in cash games. And most of his hand examples where the stacks are relatively deep (more than 50X the BB). Any time he advocates a play "because it's a tournament and with the blinds constantly increasing you have to acquire chips as fast as you can" then it probably isn't applicable to cash games

So the post-flop strategy would also be good to use in cash games??

Is he pre-flop too tight , especially on the button???
Or would you play the exact hands that he plays in tourny's in cash games??
If you would play more hands, what would they be, what positions?

I was thinking suited- one gap -connectors would be good in late position like T8 or 97 etc..

Thanks.

Originally Posted by KrazyBluffer

So the post-flop strategy would also be good to use in cash games??

I don't think it's great for cash games. In tournaments you sometimes have to commit your stack with TPGK because the pot is large enough compared to your stack and blinds are going up all the time. In cash games you can afford to be more conservative and pick your spots.

Originally Posted by KrazyBluffer

Is he pre-flop too tight , especially on the button???

He plays tighter than I do in cash games, especially in late position, but it's a matter of style. I think you could definitely be successful at 100NL and lower playing a pre-flop style as tight as Harrington's.

Originally Posted by KrazyBluffer

Or would you play the exact hands that he plays in tourny's in cash games?? If you would play more hands, what would they be, what positions?

I was thinking suited- one gap -connectors would be good in late position like T8 or 97 etc..

No I wouldn't. Some hands I play that he doesn't are medium and small pocket pairs from early and middle position, and suited connectors and gappers behind multiple limpers or a pre-flop raiser and multiple callers. I'm sure there are others too.

Sorry for bumping the thread but I just got the book and I feel like these threads will enhance my learning. anyone up for a re-read?

1. How does the lack of a betting limit change your approach to no-limit vs. limit hold 'em? How different should your strategy be in the two games? (Huge questions that could produce books of material, I know, but let's get some ideas out there for everyone who thinks the two games aren't very different.)

2. Do you think about all of the "Elements of a Hand" Harrington describes on p. 18-23 before making a decision? Which ones do you think you over- or undervalue?

3. In the sample hand (p. 24-32), how would you have played each hand differently? (Forgetting that you know other players' hands.)

4. What do you think of Harrington's play in the sample hand? What do you think of his reasoning behind it?

5. Do you use probe bets as defined by Harrington? If you do, please post a hand history or two for discussion.

1. The lack of a betting limit in NL gives you the oportunity to decide the odds to offer your opponent. In limit, with big pots you can call correctly with almost any hand, but in NL you can create situations where your opponents will make mistakes calling with improper pot odds. Strategy in limit is restricted mostly to value betting and mathematically EV and pot odds. NL strategy focuses more on implied odds as everyones stack is always at risk.

2. Im definately guilty of not paying attention to all the elements as im relatively now to tournament poker but Ive been trying to incorporate most of them. I definately undervalue where i sit in relation to aggressive/passive players. In terms of overvalueing, I would say i tend to pay alot of attention to the current pot odds and bets in front of me. From a limit background I dont factor implied odds into my thought process enough and tend to play to weak tight with SC's and low PP's. The same goes with a raise infront of me, I tend to throw away alot of hands that probably have the implied odds to call.

3/4. In the sample hand I definately would have reraised in Harringtons spot. With excellent position, a raise from a loose/aggressive player up front and a crazy playmaker in the SB I probably would have made it somewhere around 150,000 to go. I like sammy's raise, and I hate chris and vahedi's calls. Of course they are better players postflop than I am, but their offsuit connected hands could run into alot of trouble. Chris's call I see not horrible actually with his stack size, position and pot odds but I dont think I would ever be capable of vahedi's.

Postflop I think sammy's lead was good, it could have been even larger than that (but knowing afterwards it was probably the right size to keep chris and vahedi in), I agree with Harringtons fold on the flop knowing the wide hand ranges of farha and vahedi and having 2 more people to act after him on the flop. After that I think sammy's call is standard, same with chris's fold (as calling a raise needs a better than raising) and vahedie had to c/f river obviously.

I can see Harrington's reasoning behind his play, I dont think I would be capable of it though. I think flat calling gives bad hands (T8,T9) chances to hit the flop hard and your only 7 handed against an aggressive loose open raiser. Thinking in terms of hand ranges, your ahead of his range a large majority of the time and being passive takes away part of your edge.

5. Ive used probe bets before OOP with TPBK, but most of the time if I am in a pot I was the pre flop aggressor and tend to use 1/2'ish pot sized bets on the flop unless Ive whiffed completely in a multiway (3+) pot.

i play almost every hand the same but for different reasons. i just saw this hand on tv and its cool to see after you just read about it.
PRE-
sam-- w/99 i like to limp in early. but this isnt early the blinds and antee's are worth taking. i bet 2.5x to 3x the big blind here and hope to take it down right here. if not with an ace on the flop a cbet might just work as well.
dan-- W/AK i know AK is better than a lot of hands in sam's range. but i miss the flop 2/3 of the time and may be forced to fold as sam is known to be aggressive. because if i miss i'll never know if the flop hit him or not. also i'm in the cut off and the button is tight so he probably folds here. calling here seems best to me. i dont want to put a lot of money in now that i'm forced to fold later. i'll probably have postion post flop. if i was in MP i more likely raise to get positon and heads up post flop. i want position here and to be heads up and there's a good chance that happens by just calling here. if i hit the flop i'm sure the ol rope a dope will put some welcomed chips into my stack. also sam is a world class player he's not calling a big raise here unless he got me beat(or has a good chance to win on later streets).
chris-- w/T9 this is a good drawing hand in a multiway pot. he's getting good odds to call(implied odds as well) and has position post flop.
amir-- w/T8 ok this is an on the fence call for me here. it's not suited so i'm usually folding here. i may make this call w/suited cards(just to make it random and less frequent) although i've played in this spot unsuited. he's getting great pot and implied odds here if he hits the str8. i love gappers in mutliway pots. the're so hard to read esp if there was an opening raise. also there a good chance here he'll have relative position. as sam would be next to act if the big blind folds.
FLOP-
amir-- w/T8 i definately check to see what happens. i'm hoping to see a cheap or free turn. if there's no action now and i miss the turn then i may come out and bluff. i would have to feel as though as there is a good chance they fold(good fold equity). also the turn has got to be a blank. but my bluff here would most likely be a check raise.
sam-- w/99 with a set here i'm betting out in a multiway pot almost always. if i got the rep of bluffing alot i'm betting right out here. although i'm more likely to bet 1/2 the pot here or very close to it. i think what sam may have been thinking is dan(or anyone else) may have an over pair(like QQ-JJ) and wanted to get reraised here. if the flop had draws i'd would of bet the size of the pot here. for 2 reasons its multiway more likely to be called and to protect my hand.
dan- ace high in a multiway pot doesnt look too good right now. i got in cheap enough and didnt hit. there's just too many in here to make any stupid moves. also i got plently chips to wait for a better spot to get my chips in.
chris- with top pair here and no real signs of strength here i agree with dan on the probe raise. its top pair which is likely best now. there are just too many cards i don't want to see on the turn here(any over card). i raise and just hope to take it down here. also 9's here to me is just too weak to rope a dope with.
Amir- i got a gut shot that has a good chance of getting paid off. i call here and hope to pop that 7.
TURN-
amir-- /T8 with the paired board here i'm almost done with the hand here. unless th river is very cheap or free im done. no way do i bluff here. but if he plays hands like T8 he can't always hope to hit with them. he's got to bluff with them sometimes to make them profitably. on a paired board with to players i don't think i make this play though. if i were on the button i'm more likely to bluff here tough. again if i choose to bluff here its more likely to be a check/raise as i'll have a better feel whether or not there likely to fold.(eg there's a bet and then a 3bet all in there's no chance of a fold)
sam-- w/99 with a boat here and the bet of amir. i would hope to flat call here. i've been known to just get to happy and shove. with a bet like that i often am fooled into thinking they got a hand and push away any further action. but with a player left to act i'm almost positive i'd flat here. also the pot is big right now and if amir has that 6 i'm sure w/ a check here i don't hurt my chance of getting all in later.
chris-- w/T9 here i'm not 100% i'm beaten but by not probing here i just don't know where i am. top pair of 9's is a small hand and the pot is too big to call.
RIVER-
amir-- for sure i'm done. i just hope sam bets here so i can muck.
sam-- i got to put him on the hand i want him to have(trips). and bet as much as i think he'll call. because if he doesnt have the hand there's very little chance more money is going in.
i just want to comment on drawing on a paired board. not a good idea. had that 7 came on the river i definately think amir losses more chips. he may be good enough not to be stacked here but think he losses a good size chunk with a river 7. also i like money makers play in this hand he just won a big pot got mad chips got in cheap enough hoped to hit the flop hard didnt and got out cheap. he didnt make that probe and put more chip in to play needlessly.

1.) i dont play limit but would agree w/dan about controlling the odds. make your opponant make a mistake to draw out. i would think that is a very important skill in no limit that is not required in limit. also the fact that one mistake or even non-mistake(a suck out) in no-limit it can be over for you. so you got to be more carefull in no limit.

2.)
1--- about the tournament structure. whether or not it pays 1% 10% or 20% has little effect on my play.(i will put more thought into this). but if it's getting close to the bubble this has a big effect on my play.(i still tighten up esp w/ a big stack but working on this)
9--- i look at the pots odds offered.(probably should put more thought into this though.) i'm not always sure as to whether to play a hand or whether or not to risk x% of my chips etc.
10-- position is key. i've got to remember what they say about a world class player vs. donkey. the donkey has the best of it with position. although i play against donkeys alot i'm no world clas player. and even if i were position still would be more important. i think i need to bet and 3bet more often to gain position.
11-- the cards sometimes i don't pay enough attention to them. i get caught up in all the other elements of a hand and try to make a hand up. this is truer in multiway pots where im sure i can get a player to fold i often get caught by that 3rd guy that for sure has the cards to beat me.

3.) see my other post. also i cant be 100% of my play on any given hand.

4.) see other hand. but i agree mostly with dan reasons. with AK i like to see flops. if i'm short i'd love to shove or get it all in pre.if it's checked to me i would raise and hope never to see a flop.

5.) i do use probe bets. if thats what there called. i use them to take the pot down when i'm likely ahead and don't want to see another street. i also use them against that min raise on a paired board(sometimes whether or not got a hand). if i got a boat on a paired board i probe bet. i want to see if he really got trips and to build a bigger pot right away. there are times i dont probe. if the flop in the eg was 984 and two toned(w/a str8 and flush draw possible). i wouldnt probe at all(if i were chris). because if i did probe and was called it tells me nothing. he could have me beat or could be chasing his draw. i would just be paying for info that i never got. i dont probe if i got say an ace/rag for top pair(paired the ace) and weak kicker. i dont want to probe just to see i'm behind or build a big pot with a small hand when there no need. i may call a smaller sized bet and hope my ace is good for showdown. also i and the other guy would have to have deep stacks to make this probe worth probing. cuz if i probe a short stack ive pretty much commited myself to call.