$10 zone

hero has ($9.85) in SB

MP ($20.85) opens 3xBB to .15
hero calls

pot is .37

flop comes

hero checks, MP bets .40, hero raises to $1.30, MP calls

pot is $2.97

turn is

hero bets $1.95, MP calls

pot is $6.85

river is

hero shoves $6.30, MP tanks..

im 4 tabling , 2-$5 and 2-$10 zone tables. which is basic readless poker other than stack size at start of hand, and bet sizing,timing during hand.
my question is whats heros perceived range in this spot?

remember all we know is players with 100bbs+ are competent. that's it.

whats your 3bet range pre, how do villains react to 3bets , are they calling , reraising or folding?How do they react in 3bet pots postflop, are they folding to a cbet lot of the time.? Not 3betting pre looks a mistake to me in readless poker.


on the river you are looking like flushes and 3x , Anything tha can't beat/tie with a straight should be folding though.

I 3b a fairly tight range, i moved AKo into my calling range because most of the time people are folding to 3bets. So i chose to 3bet hands like K7-K9s etc. And flat AKo to keep in weaker kings and aces. AKs i 3 bet for value obv. I didnt like the river very much but i think shoving is better than checking. Villian has to be right a big % to call river so i think im folding out most of range OTR.

How freaking wide is your SB flatting range to a 3x open from MP that you play K7s?

I'd play 97s before K7s. MP opens are expected to be heavily laden with broadway cards and PP's. Having a K with a weak kicker is going to put you in terrible decision spots. Playing SC's for 2-pair+ hands is much safer when OOP against a predictable opponent.

I think the only 3X hands in SB range would be { 33, A3s }. There's plenty of SC's and AXs in a SB flatting range, though.

I'd perceive your range as mostly flushes, sets and Aces up, with an occasional wheel, and a healthy dose of random spew. (Everyone at 10NL has random spew, more than they perceive in themselves).

If I was Villain and I called, I'd smile that you had AKo in this spot. I'd smile cause I think you played PRE in such a way that you're going to end up misplaying the hand post almost every time.

Here, you represent strength, but you're holding the bottom of your range... weaker than you've represented... meaning you turned AKo into a bluff when you had decent showdown value.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

How freaking wide is your SB flatting range to a 3x open from MP that you play K7s?

I'd play 97s before K7s. MP opens are expected to be heavily laden with broadway cards and PP's. Having a K with a weak kicker is going to put you in terrible decision spots. Playing SC's for 2-pair+ hands is much safer when OOP against a predictable opponent.

I think the only 3X hands in SB range would be { 33, A3s }. There's plenty of SC's and AXs in a SB flatting range, though.

I'd perceive your range as mostly flushes, sets and Aces up, with an occasional wheel, and a healthy dose of random spew. (Everyone at 10NL has random spew, more than they perceive in themselves).

If I was Villain and I called, I'd smile that you had AKo in this spot. I'd smile cause I think you played PRE in such a way that you're going to end up misplaying the hand post almost every time.

Here, you represent strength, but you're holding the bottom of your range... weaker than you've represented... meaning you turned AKo into a bluff when you had decent showdown value.

I 3bet hands like K7s etc, not call. The reason is people play supertight vs. A 3bet even in position. I use to 3bet AKo vs every position (except UTG)until i realized that people are folding too much to 3bets. Bovada has a weird but cool thing where two days after a hand is played you can see ALL opponents cards that were dealt. Whether they played or not. So i went back and looked and people are opening alot of broadways and folding to 3bets. So why eould i 3bet AKo? its a pretty good favorite vs that range. So i choose to to 3bet hands that have equity vs. That range but not enough equity to call. Hence i 3bet my premiums, and weaker Axs,Kxs that cant profitably call as bluffs. You see what im saying?
I built my ranges after reading spoons articles and thought i had a decent idea of what was going on. When i get to my computer ill post my ranges that ive constructed, see what you think.

Originally Posted by acg123

remember all we know is players with 100bbs+ are competent. that's it.

you have mis-applied the read i suggested.
We know that players with less than 100bb are likely to be worse, on average, than the player pool as a whole.
I definitely wouldn't extend the read as far as you have done here..

anyway, 3b pre. I see your argument against doing so and I don't like it. Do you 3b aces here? or are you calling them too cos you don't want villain to fold? etc.

anyway, villain looks like Ax/22+/flush draws after the flop, after the turn villain looks like AQ+/A2-A5/22-66/AA/all the flush draws. The river bet is interesting. Are you hoping to be called by worse? or are you bluffing? you look like 33/A3s/Ahxh/spew. Worse isn't calling here, so you're bluffing right? You're doing your best to rep Ahxh, but villain's range is strong and a common weakness is calling strong hands and justifying it with 'getting 2:1 brah".

I'm curious about your mentality on the turn bet too, was that for value? vs what calling range?

on the river you're going to end up sadfaced after villain calls with a Qhi flush or a straight here quite often.

X/r on flop was supposed to charge fds, weaker Ax drawing to wheel, and possibly fold out small overpairs.

Turn bet i had mixed feelings about during the hand, i assumed villian would call putting us on mostly FDs when we x/r flop. So i think hes calling some PPs as well as Ax and FDs,

River..meh..he called me twice after a x/r so i assume he can beat a single pair. So checking river is out of the question.My range is full of FDs so i decide that betting will fold out everything but flushes from his range. Im pretty much only being called by flushes.since i hold the nut blocker i think its a good spot to continue bluffing.

As far as AA, im 3 betting yes. I understand it might be a mistake but whos going to exploit it? Nobody has reads so its difficult for me to want to flat aces or 3bet AKo which means ill be 3betting 3x as much as i am now OOP vs unknowns who open a superwide range but play tight vs 3bets. If you can make a good argument or explain why its a mistake and how i need to correct it. Please im all ears, thats why i post HHs to get constuctive criticisim.

Originally Posted by acg123

I 3bet hands like K7s etc, not call.

My point was that K7s is a weaker hand that 97s when you're not all-in PRE. If I was going to play 1 or the other, I'd pick 97s. If you're defending your SB to MP openers with a range wide enough to include both, then you're playing a lot of -EV hands in that spot. Personally, I wouldn't even play 97s against an MP opener, I'd rather be 3-bet bluffing with A2s-A6s. I will prob. 3-bet 97s against an aggressive blind stealer on my right a non-zero % of the time, but it's not a go-to tactic. I do not play a weak KXs hand from any position other than to steal blinds when it's folded to me on the BTN. (At full ring cash game.)

Originally Posted by acg123

The reason is people play supertight vs. A 3bet even in position. I use to 3bet AKo vs every position (except UTG)until i realized that people are folding too much to 3bets.

When they don't fold... what are you in a hand against (their range)? And what are you holding (your range)?

Originally Posted by acg123

Bovada has a weird but cool thing where two days after a hand is played you can see ALL opponents cards that were dealt. Whether they played or not.

They open for viewing 24 hours after you close the table. It's not technically 2 days, but I usually go back 2 days to study/review, since I prefer to study before I hit the tables, rather than after. I note hands by their hand # and the time of the hand for when I want to review them later.

This is an excellent tool, and you should def. be using it.

Originally Posted by acg123

So i went back and looked and people are opening alot of broadways and folding to 3bets. So why eould i 3bet AKo? its a pretty good favorite vs that range. So i choose to to 3bet hands that have equity vs. That range but not enough equity to call. Hence i 3bet my premiums, and weaker Axs,Kxs that cant profitably call as bluffs. You see what im saying?

It's hard to imagine them having a continuing range against which AKo is not at least a 0EV hand.

You simply must bet the top of your range, and AKo is way up in the top of your range. Playing AKo in 3-bet pots will win you more money when you win the pot than when you play AKo in not 3-bet pots. You're not gaining value by NOT betting your top holdings.

Originally Posted by acg123

I built my ranges after reading spoons articles and thought i had a decent idea of what was going on. When i get to my computer ill post my ranges that ive constructed, see what you think.

To be fair, you're approaching a sensible thought process for constructing your ranges. You're not there yet, but you're heading the right direction.

There's no use in posting your ranges w/o Villain's ranges and a betting scenario.

It's much better to take this hand as a guide and say, MP has over 200BB, and opens from MP at 3x.
1) What is Villains range?

It is folded to Hero in the SB, let's assume the BB will always fold for the sake of simplicity.
2) What %-age of hands does Hero need to continue with to prevent being exploited?

Assuming Hero 3-bets to 9x:
3) What range will Villain 4-bet? / What range will Villain flat? / What range will Villain fold?


4) Using the answers to these 3 questions, what does that tell us about Hero's optimal range to call a raise? to 3-bet/fold? to 3-bet/call?
(Let's just assume Hero can not 5-bet for now, since even 4-bets are rare at the micros.)

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

I'd rather be 3-bet bluffing with A2s-A6s.
exactly what im doing with K7s. villians fold sooo often to 3bets that I think its profitable to 3bet bluff K7s.

I will prob. 3-bet 97s against an aggressive blind stealer on my right a non-zero % of the time, but it's not a go-to tactic.
every hand has new players, theres no way of knowing if villians agro or not. so I constructed my ranges based on what hands im opening


When they don't fold... what are you in a hand against (their range)? And what are you holding (your range)?
theyre holding 22-TT,A9s-AJs,ATo-AJo,KQs (94combos) and another 10 combos or random so 104 combos.

im holding my value range (88+, AJs+, AQo+) or my bluffing range (A6s-A3s, K8s-K6s, Q9s-Q6s, J9s-J6s, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+)
which have 64.89% equity and 39.83% respectively.

.

This is an excellent tool, and you should def. be using it.
word.

You're not gaining value by NOT betting your top holdings.
excellent point, and well taken. I need to 3bet for value and not flat and give monies away. got it.



It's much better to take this hand as a guide and say, MP has over 200BB, and opens from MP at 3x.
1) What is Villains range?
22+,A9s+,A5s-A2s,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,ATo+,KQo


It is folded to Hero in the SB, let's assume the BB will always fold for the sake of simplicity.
2) What %-age of hands does Hero need to continue with to prevent being exploited?
this I do not know. I also do not know how to figure out so an explanation would be sweet.

Assuming Hero 3-bets to 9x:
3) What range will Villain 4-bet? / What range will Villain flat? / What range will Villain fold?
4bet range = JJ+,AQo+,AQs+(56 combos)
flatting range= 22-TT,A9s-AJs,ATo-AJo,KQs (94 combos)
folding range=A5s-A2s, KJs-K9s, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, KQo(68 combos)

Using the answers to these 3 questions, what does that tell us about Hero's optimal range to call a raise? to 3-bet/fold? to 3-bet/call?
idk honestly, that's why your sir mojo, so you can explain or give me an example so I can do it myself.

these are all assumptions aswell. ive been writing down hands after bovada releases them where a villain with 100BBs open and or calls so I can construct more accurate ranges. its very slow and tedious so its difficult for me to get a lot done without getting bored in 6 seconds.

Originally Posted by acg123

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkeyI'd rather be 3-bet bluffing with A2s-A6s.

exactly what im doing with K7s. villians fold sooo often to 3bets that I think its profitable to 3bet bluff K7s.

there's a big difference between K7s and A2s especially when you get into 3bet pots which implies more money in the pot. The Axs hands are drawing to the nut flush draw , the K7s type hands are drawing to the beatable flushes so are getting into RIO (reverse implied odds) trouble with them , if you hit a K high flop you aren't gonna be happy getting your money in since villain will have a lot of better K's in his range . You aren't gonna like hitting your seven either.
In comparison the A2-A6 hands are going to have more straight outs especially on low flops that villains will be happy to stack off with their premium over pairs vs. A2-A6s are going to be a lot easier to play , going to hit flops better and will let you draw to the nuts and bigger pots than K7s type hands.

In a way its similar to the XYo vs XYs argument , the suited hands only have about 2% more equity, but when you hit you will be winning bigger pots with the flushs than with the non flush hands.The point is not to just bluff, but if you do get called that you should have some playability with the hands that you are bluffing with.

I'm so rusty on this stuff, that I just spent an hour trying to respond to 2) and felt stupid the whole time. The important thing to note is that my question was stated quite poorly, and there is no immediate or even demonstrably right answer to it, as stated.

I'm trying to get you to the point of using math to defend your choices instead of your gut. Don't get me wrong, your gut is an amazing guide, but a bit of math to double-check it from time to time is a must.

Here's some links to read for help constructing 3-betting ranges PRE:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/poker-s...l-ranges-20883
http://www.flopturnriver.com/poker-s...pre-flop-20735
http://www.flopturnriver.com/poker-s...-players-20726

What you want to be exploring as pertains to constructing your ranges, is to become intimately familiar with pot odds calculations and what those %-ages mean to your range. At the same time, you need to consider what your actions do to Villain's range. When you know your pot-odds and you control your equity, you are going to move right up and out of the micros.

I found studying the [0, 1] game to be incredibly helpful to me a couple of years ago while I was still playing 8 - 10 hours a day on Bovada ring games. I play a couple of hours a week for fun now, so I'm rusty on the bits which take real study to tweak.

***
If you read those articles and bring back specific questions, I will do my best to answer them. I feel like I have to explain too many tangential concepts to discuss it here without feeling a bit 'tarded.

Sorry if I have to give up the 'sir' title. It was fun while it lasted.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

I'm so rusty on this stuff, that I just spent an hour trying to respond to 2) and felt stupid the whole time. The important thing to note is that my question was stated quite poorly, and there is no immediate or even demonstrably right answer to it, as stated.

I'm trying to get you to the point of using math to defend your choices instead of your gut. Don't get me wrong, your gut is an amazing guide, but a bit of math to double-check it from time to time is a must.

Here's some links to read for help constructing 3-betting ranges PRE:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/poker-s...l-ranges-20883
http://www.flopturnriver.com/poker-s...pre-flop-20735
http://www.flopturnriver.com/poker-s...-players-20726

What you want to be exploring as pertains to constructing your ranges, is to become intimately familiar with pot odds calculations and what those %-ages mean to your range. At the same time, you need to consider what your actions do to Villain's range. When you know your pot-odds and you control your equity, you are going to move right up and out of the micros.

I found studying the [0, 1] game to be incredibly helpful to me a couple of years ago while I was still playing 8 - 10 hours a day on Bovada ring games. I play a couple of hours a week for fun now, so I'm rusty on the bits which take real study to tweak.

***
If you read those articles and bring back specific questions, I will do my best to answer them. I feel like I have to explain too many tangential concepts to discuss it here without feeling a bit 'tarded.

Sorry if I have to give up the 'sir' title. It was fun while it lasted.

those are the articles I read, the [0,1] is def. beyond me as far as understanding. that article makes no sense to me at all. multiple people have stated tit has helped them so ive read it a few times but I don't really understand where we get the % from. is it our specific range equity % that's shown in equilab? if so, then how do we determine bluff % for unknowns? this seems like one of those things where someone will respond with one sentence and it will click and ta-da it all makes sense now. im good with math but sometimes concepts based on "assumptions left to me" are just not as easy to grasp. thanks mojo,keith and daven once again. lol helping me elevate from my spewy self. I have a small write up in the blog&ops explaining. I will re-read those articles tonight after my sons asleep and do some work. in the meantime if anyone thinks they can explain the [0,1] please do. lol

If you're having trouble understanding the [0, 1] game, perhaps you need to brush up on EV calculations:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/poker-s...oduction-20573

and

pot-odds calculations:
You may be familiar with (bet)/(bet+pot) which is one of the important percentages in poker games. It tells you how much equity you need to call an all-in.
When calling an all-in, your equity is solely in the value of your hand.

When more bets may come, your total equity involves some bluffing and other factors, but in general, the value (bet)/(bet+pot) is going to be something you want to just know all the time when you glance at a poker table. Whenever you're thinking of calling, you should expect to have at least this much total equity.

In the SB, facing a raise of 3 BB, you have 4.5 BB in the pot and face a bet of 2.5 BB.
(bet)/(bet+pot) = (2.5 BB)/(2.5 BB + 4.5 BB) = (2.5)/(7) ~= 36%

If you were facing an all-in bet, you want to call with all the hands in your range that have AT LEAST 36% equity against Villain's range.
Since you're not facing an all in bet, you factor in that some hands will be easy for you to play, some hands will be hard for you to play, and you estimate the total equity you have in each hand in your range. You continue with all the hands whose total equity you estimate at 36% or more.

When analyzing which hands to raise, we have to look at the (bet)/(bet+pot) value that we offer Villain, and see what his GTO response should be. Then we estimate what his actual range in response is, and we decide what (bet)/(bet+pot) we want to offer him, and what range we want to have when he continues. First, we assume he can only call, then we assume he can raise, and we must do this again in reverse.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

brush up on EV calculations:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/poker-s...oduction-20573

and

You continue with all the hands whose total equity you estimate at 36% or more.

When analyzing which hands to raise, we have to look at the (bet)/(bet+pot) value that we offer Villain, and see what his GTO response should be.

like I said usually it only takes a sentence to make it click. I will do some calculations and let you know what I come up with.

This hand is confusing to me. Are you bluffing river or value shoving? If i can't tell, it's probably too thin.

preflop I would 3bet.

As played, what better hands do you think are folding to your raise on the flop? I would just call the flop. Might contemplate donking a turn heart.

As played, I think the turn is fine but this particular run out (four straight, flush river), makes getting value from your Ax very tough. I would check river and re-eval and probably c/f.

Originally Posted by griffey24

This hand is confusing to me. Are you bluffing river or value shoving?
turn was for value, river is a bluff because I don't think villain calls turn with less than TP+, at first i assumed he might float one with a hand like TT or JJ and maybe bink or bluff river but after reviewing some other hands that's just not going to happen often enough.


As played, what better hands do you think are folding to your raise on the flop? I would just call the flop. Might contemplate donking a turn heart.

any S.C. without a draw,any broadway combo without an ace or FD..

As played, I think the turn is fine but this particular run out (four straight, flush river), makes getting value from your Ax very tough. I would check river and re-eval and probably c/f.

that's what I thought too at first, but then i thought i played my hand exactly like a fish would play a bum FD which villain doesn't know if were fish or not. so if my perceived range is full of FDs, and villain doesn't call turn with less than TP+, then i think shoving is our only play as checking wont win.

b

Originally Posted by acg123

b

They key part to my point above, regarding flop, was what BETTER hands than yours are folding to your flop raise. I agree with your range of "any S.C. without a draw,any broadway combo without an ace or FD.." are folding, but those aren't better hands. But I think your response proves the point well.

Your flop raise only folds WORSE hands than ours, that we don't mind keeping in. You're 75%+ vs some random SC without a draw, why do we want to blow that hand out?

I think this is a common leak many ppl have. The fear of letting someone hit their 20-30% equity (only 10-15% hitting by the turn), and taking a suboptimal line to avoid that situation.

Originally Posted by griffey24

They key part to my point above, regarding flop, was what BETTER hands than yours are folding to your flop raise. I agree with your range of "any S.C. without a draw,any broadway combo without an ace or FD.." are folding, but those aren't better hands. But I think your response proves the point well.

Your flop raise only folds WORSE hands than ours, that we don't mind keeping in. You're 75%+ vs some random SC without a draw, why do we want to blow that hand out?

I think this is a common leak many ppl have. The fear of letting someone hit their 20-30% equity (only 10-15% hitting by the turn), and taking a suboptimal line to avoid that situation.

True, but if i x/c then that puts me in a super akward spot OTT with any card but an ace,king or 3. I feel like taking control of the pot is a betyer play.maybe not?

Originally Posted by acg123

True, but if i x/c then that puts me in a super akward spot OTT with any card but an ace,king or 3. I feel like taking control of the pot is a betyer play.maybe not?

That depends on your reads of villain.

If you think he's the type to only barrel legitimate hands, then you can just c/f turn. His legitimate barreling range, in this case, won't fold to your flop raise anyhow.

If you think he's the type to barrel light, then you can just c/c again. By raising flop you're blowing out his bluffs.

Originally Posted by griffey24

That depends on your reads of villain.

If you think he's the type to only barrel legitimate hands, then you can just c/f turn. His legitimate barreling range, in this case, won't fold to your flop raise anyhow.

If you think he's the type to barrel light, then you can just c/c again. By raising flop you're blowing out his bluffs.

true. I cant argue with that, lol definitely something to take to my review sessions. ty