busting the bubble

Originally Posted by Jason Strassa

This is very standard yet I bet a vast majority of you will never make this fold.

Four handed. Blinds 250/500. You are big stack with a little over 5k. You are the BB. UTG with a little over 2k folds, button with a little over 2k folds, SB goes all in and its one more chip for you to call and you have any two cards.

-Jason

assume regular party 200 sng

original thread: http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...page/0/fpart/1

discuss!

I'm not going to read all of it but the only time I do this is if a call-loss will leave me a stack that the players behind me can't fold to my push next hand.

In other words, at 5k, if that dude has ~1,500 of less I call instantly.

I think this one is really dependant on whom you are playing with. At the limits I play I think I would never pull that move. People dont get what you are doing and you cant expect them to fold to your ATC pushes all the time. And when I have only 10bbs on the bubble big stack or not, I want the bubble to be over and not waiting for some donk calling my push with Q9 suited, because he was on tilt/loosing patience.

Originally Posted by losttrem

I think this one is really dependant on whom you are playing with. At the limits I play I think I would never pull that move. People dont get what you are doing and you cant expect them to fold to your ATC pushes all the time. And when I have only 10bbs on the bubble big stack or not, I want the bubble to be over and not waiting for some donk calling my push with Q9 suited, because he was on tilt/loosing patience.

I don't think it's read-dependent at all.

Ok, to be more precisely. If the medium stacks are Phil Hellmuth and Barry Greenstein, I might make that move to extend the bubble. If they are the usual players at my BI level (6,50) I dont make it.

Originally Posted by losttrem

Ok, to be more precisely. If the medium stacks are Phil Hellmuth and Barry Greenstein, I might make that move to extend the bubble. If they are the usual players at my BI level (6,50) I dont make it.

Why?

more people are aware that it's the bubble, the more you should make this fold.

assume regular party 200 sng

most 200 SNGers are brutally aware of bubble, which is why this is an easy lay down.

Originally Posted by ummm, what

I'm not going to read all of it but the only time I do this is if a call-loss will leave me a stack that the players behind me can't fold to my push next hand.

In other words, at 5k, if that dude has ~1,500 of less I call instantly.

SB goes all in and its one more chip for you to call

I'm hoping you get it when you re read this. If not, let me know.

Because they would know about tournament theory and thereby are likely to fold to my push instead of making some stupid tilt calls. The only point in folding in this spot is to keep the bubble alive. But to do this I have to be pretty sure, that the two medium stacks wont get frustrated on me and take a shot at calling my push. If I can be sure, that they keep playing ABC poker then folding to one more chip makes sense in this spot. But hero's stack in this situation isnt invincible. And a standard online donk is much more likely to take the shot at doubling through hero with some crappy holding than someone who actually knows what he is doing.

Originally Posted by losttrem

Ok, to be more precisely. If the medium stacks are Phil Hellmuth and Barry Greenstein, I might make that move to extend the bubble. If they are the usual players at my BI level (6,50) I dont make it.

Wouldn't Hellmuth or Greenstein have a better chance at knowing you were pushing ATC because of this and widen their calling ranges, as opposed to 6.50 donks who will remain tight because they do not want to bust?

Originally Posted by drmcboy

I'm hoping you get it when you re read this. If not, let me know.

A ha! There's some info I was missing. I am instacalling this with 5k behind. Not only that but I am insta pushing the next hand and the hand after that, win or lose.

The likelihood of me calling falls with the lower size of my stack. Everyone on 2+2 considers this a standard fold. Wtf? What am I missing here. There is no way I'm folding, I don't see the point.

-I do now understand the situation, right? Button just put 501 in the pot?

It's the bubble. There is a 1BB stack at the table.

Since he's about to go out, the 2 2k stacks are basically forced to fold any hand until he does (run some ICM calcs if you like) and so until he goes broke, you are a huge favorite to pick up 750 plus antes each deal.

Why would you want to call here (to try and win 1k) and free up the 2k stacks to gamble with you. You have to double up one of the 2k guys once before you even worry about going out, and again it's unlikely they can play any hand excect premiums.

If you get luck and shorty doubles once or twice, you may more or less have it won before the bubble even breaks.

I thought of that, and even so aren't they still waiting even if he wins and is at 1200?

of course, the whole point is you don't want him to go out, because then it isn't the bubble. The concern isn't that he'll win, it's that YOU will.

There are three things that can happen:

Shorty doubles after you call (maintains bubble, good)

Shorty doubles after you fold (maintains bubble, good)

Shorty goes broke after you call and win (ends bubble, bad)

So you can either take a 'flip' between one good outcome and one bad one, or you can guarantee the good outcome. You're arguing for the flip. Why?

Just to be clear, if your answer is "So I can win 1k chips!" recognize you're probably going to make almost that next hand if shorty doesn't push, and after that it's pure profit.

And the 1k chips you may get from racing shorty are much less of a sure thing than picking up blinds as long as he's around.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

Just to be clear, if your answer is "So I can win 1k chips!" recognize you're probably going to make almost that next hand if shorty doesn't push, and after that it's pure profit.

And the 1k chips you may get from racing shorty are much less of a sure thing than picking up blinds as long as he's around.

omfg, exactly how much of a donkey do you consider me?

Originally Posted by K2 the ArmA

Originally Posted by drmcboy

Just to be clear, if your answer is "So I can win 1k chips!" recognize you're probably going to make almost that next hand if shorty doesn't push, and after that it's pure profit.

And the 1k chips you may get from racing shorty are much less of a sure thing than picking up blinds as long as he's around.

omfg, exactly how much of a donkey do you consider me?

answer this, and I'll tell you.

So you can either take a 'flip' between one good outcome and one bad one, or you can guarantee the good outcome. You're arguing for the flip. Why?

I'm not sure why you're so upset. This is an important concept that it's clear you are not grasping. The value of the bubble is much larger than the value of the chips you gain here, in spite of the almost infinite pot odds.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

Originally Posted by K2 the ArmA

Originally Posted by drmcboy

Just to be clear, if your answer is "So I can win 1k chips!" recognize you're probably going to make almost that next hand if shorty doesn't push, and after that it's pure profit.

And the 1k chips you may get from racing shorty are much less of a sure thing than picking up blinds as long as he's around.

omfg, exactly how much of a donkey do you consider me?

answer this, and I'll tell you.

So you can either take a 'flip' between one good outcome and one bad one, or you can guarantee the good outcome. You're arguing for the flip. Why?

I'm not sure why you're so upset. This is an important concept that it's clear you are not grasping. The value of the bubble is much larger than the value of the chips you gain here, in spite of the almost infinite pot odds.

This is a situation I hadn't thought of, I never looked at in that way.

-You're being a prick in both threads. The other you didn't even explain your position. The more knowledgable posters are here to help the less knowledgable, why do you even bother posting if you don't like the idea of explaining your train of thought? I'm not here to accept everthing you say as immediate truth. I want to understand, I will ask questions and I will try to play devil's advocate, if you have a problem with that, avoid discussing poker with me.

In which of my mutiple posts in this thread am I not explaining my train of thought? I kept replying, expanding or saying the same thing differently, which are the only ways I know of to get you on my thought train.

In the other thread, you singled out my reply in an attempt (I guess) to make me look dumb, since you know I wasn't advocating open shoving JJ for 1k at 10/20 blinds. I hoped when Tai looked back he would see it was a push coming back, or explain why he thought not, which as you say has a lot more value than me just giving him my opinion and expecting it to be loved and adored.

I enjoy humor and sarcasm along with learning and discussing poker.

I am sorry I offended you.

I will avoid your posts in the future to prevent misunderstandings because to me my replies have been fairly standard and I am honestly puzzled by this.

I would ask you to do the same for me.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

In which of my mutiple posts in this thread am I not explaining my train of thought? I kept replying, expanding or saying the same thing differently, which are the only ways I know of to get you on my thought train.

In the other thread, you singled out my reply in an attempt (I guess) to make me look dumb, since you know I wasn't advocating open shoving JJ for 1k at 10/20 blinds. I hoped when Tai looked back he would see it was a push coming back, or explain why he thought not, which as you say has a lot more value than me just giving him my opinion and expecting it to be loved and adored.

I enjoy humor and sarcasm along with learning and discussing poker.

I am sorry I offended you.

I will avoid your posts in the future to prevent misunderstandings because to me my replies have been fairly standard and I am honestly puzzled by this.

I would ask you to do the same for me.

I was referring to the other thread and read your comment as you were saying he should have pushed, not proding for logic. I suppose I was the first one to offend then? I didn't mean to make you look stupid, It didn't make any sense and I pointed it out.

I still don't see how your reply was justified, you expect me to know that you really aren't saying he should push there so you get mad and make a oddly rude comment about me being stupid?

gawd, what have i done...

Pretty standard laydown. Keep the bubble alive to punish the mid stacks. It's a lot of fun!

I was referring to the other thread and read your comment as you were saying he should have pushed, not proding for logic. I suppose I was the first one to offend then? I didn't mean to make you look stupid, It didn't make any sense and I pointed it out.

I still don't see how your reply was justified, you expect me to know that you really aren't saying he should push there so you get mad and make a oddly rude comment about me being stupid?

I could explain in more detail why I think your post deserved the treatment I gave it, but I find it extremely unlikely it will make you less angry and so I don't really see the value. You're in "Go fuck yourself" mode, which is fine. I apologized and I can't offer you anything else. Please PM any further insults you want to throw at me so people don't have to read this anymore.

Just so you know, you can tell I don't think you're stupid because I sometimes reply to your posts. If you want to start a list of people who I (might) think are stupid, look for people who I don't waste my time 'speaking' to.

Im hope im not butting in guys but...............

'' The more knowledgable posters are here to help the less knowledgable,''

No we are not, this is not our reason for being. we dont HAVE too

''why do you even bother posting if you don't like the idea of explaining your train of thought? ''

To make sure your not spoon fed, this point is really key in anyones development. man thought to fish etc etc

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

Im hope im not butting in guys but...............

'' The more knowledgable posters are here to help the less knowledgable,''

No we are not, this is not our reason for being. we dont HAVE too

''why do you even bother posting if you don't like the idea of explaining your train of thought? ''

To make sure your not spoon fed, this point is really key in anyones development. man thought to fish etc etc

This really isn't needed a day later.

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

Im hope im not butting in guys but...............

'' The more knowledgable posters are here to help the less knowledgable,''

No we are not, this is not our reason for being. we dont HAVE too

C'mon goat, you know you're not in the category "more knowledgable."

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

Im hope im not butting in guys but...............

'' The more knowledgable posters are here to help the less knowledgable,''

No we are not, this is not our reason for being. we dont HAVE too

''why do you even bother posting if you don't like the idea of explaining your train of thought? ''

To make sure your not spoon fed, this point is really key in anyones development. man thought to fish etc etc

I don't entirely agree with you anyways, what's the point of discussing poker when you consider being more knowledgable than the op? Of course your reason for being isn't to help others and I never said anybody was obligated to do so but why even reply to a thread that has an obv answer that the op doesn't understand? You're replying to help them understand, right? Otherwise you are just here to learn from posters that are more knowledgable than you and where would you be if they didn't reply to your threads?

It wasn't him not spoon feeding me the information that got to me (and I pointed out that I don't want that either) it was his attitude towards me that pissed me off and sent me off the handle. I said a bunch of shit that I didn't need to and we finished our arguments privately. There's no reason to re-hash it anymore.

No problem K2, leave it at that