Can I make a living playing limit?

[nortino]

I'm currently playing $1/$2 6-Max LHE on FT, and I'm doing ok, slowly building my bankroll and clearing their bonus. The thing is though, I'd like one day to make a living playing poker online, and I just can't see how that would be possible playing limit. Am I wrong about this? I was playing £0.35/£0.70 on CryptoLogic and getting about 9BB/100, and now on $1/$2 on FT I'm down to 2BB/100. The difference in quality as you go up tables is very noticeable, so I'm thinking if I were playing $5/$10 limit, how much could I hope to win? Say 2BB/100? So that's $20 per 100 hands. At the moment I work as a programmer and earn about $150 dollars a day - therefore to earn a similar amount (which still isn't a great income) I'd have to play on average 750 hands per day. That seems like a hard way to make an easy living, as they say.
So my question is, does anyone make a living playing limit? And if so, how? I'm starting to think that I need to move to no limit, even though I don't like it as much as limit; there seems to be more people playing no limit (presumably because of TV, WSOP etc), and it seems like the quality of players in small stakes no limit games is actually quite poor compared to limit, and therefore it should be easier to make money. Do people who make decent money at poker all play no limit?

[jyms]

Playing Full time requires a lot of time and money. In short, you will need 6 months living expenses just aside from your poker money. most people seem to think you need to make about $100 an hour to actually earn an income. Play until then, and then re evaluate. As for limit, yes most have left the game for the juicier no limit games.

[bigspenda73]

You probably cannot make much of a living off of your poker winnings but you can make a killing off of rakeback.

If you can 8 table 6max you can earn so much rakeback. Just become a slightly better than breakeven player and you could be banking some cash.

[euphoricism]

A) Playing 750 hands in a day is absolutely nothing at LHE. Quad tabling you can do almost 400 hands an hour, so thats only two hours of play. As a professional, youre looking to put in eight.

B) Dont expect to do better than 2bb/100 at ANY stake. If you did, you went on a very very good run and it will not last.

C) I ran 1.5bb/100 at Party's 5/10 game over some rediculous sample size.

D) Spenda is spot on. LHE is about feeding the rake and trying to break even. If you can do better than breakeven you can bring in some nice rake.

E) Pulling in 2-3kish a month in RB alone is pretty simple to do in LHE because its raked so hard and the hands go so fast.


So yes, its certainly doable. As spenda said breaking even while 8 tabling 3/6 and 5/10 really can rack up some mega rakeback. If you can win 1bb/100 over that at the same time you'll make a lot of money. But it is a severe emotional rollercoaster that tends to burn out the best of the best, so be careful.

[|~|ypermegachi]

... I'd have to play on average 750 hands per day. That seems like a hard way to make an easy living, as they say.

playing poker for a living is not easy. keep that mindset and you'll never succeed as a pro player.

[swiggidy]

wouldn't playing 3k hands of break even limit be only slightly more fun that punching yourself in the nuts repeatedly? Or does the knowledge that you're making a shit-ton from rake make it OK?

serious question

follow up, is 3/6 hard?

[bigspenda73]

I think I would have to have a rakeback account giving me money on a daily basis.

My account now transfers me money every 30 days.

I searched for a rakeback calculator and ran these numbers:

30 days a month
6 hours a day
8 tabling 6max
3/6 limit
30% rakeback

~$5700/month

Throw in running like .5bb/100 over that span and you are rich.

[Anosmic]

If I could be a break-even $3/6 player long-term I'd be sooo happy

I just played 1500 hands of break-even $3/6 on crypto and loved it. Playing 1k hands nets me $100 of bonus and >$50 of rakeback.

On crypto I could make $1k a month bonus + $500 rakeback for just 10k hands... it's quite sick
The only drawbacks are game availability and my inability to play winning 6-max.

[nortino]

B) Dont expect to do better than 2bb/100 at ANY stake. If you did, you went on a very very good run and it will not last.

Really? Surely at very low stakes ($1/$2 and below) it's possible to do better than 2BB/100 hands. On $1/$2 on FT I've frankly been playing badly (and I don't consider myself a great player anyway), and I'm still scraping 2BB/100. Surely someone better than me could consistently win 3 or 4BB/100 at that level.

I don't multi-table, because I play worse when I do, so obviously this means I get through less hands per hour, and therefore get less rake, but probably my BB/100 rate is higher than it would be if I multi-tabled. It sound like I need to learn to multi-table though to crunch through the rake. The thing is though, I don't just want to play 1000 hands of break-even poker a day to generate tonnes of rake; I want to win money because I'm playing well. Do you find your game suffers much from multi-tabling?

[swiggidy]

if you're still one tabling it's way, waaaay, WAAAAAAAY too early to think about making a living.

Try to enjoy the game and learn as much as possible (which includes multi-tabling) while grinding a roll. If you worry about working towards making $X/hr then you are going to be too results oriented and get frustrated if you aren't breaking even.

That paragraph has nothing to do with what kind of poker you're playing.

[euphoricism]

Nortino: Very, very, very, very few people do 3bb/100 longterm at ANY stake. Even micros. We've been over this way too often, you can use the search function if you want to read up on it but I wont expand upon it here.

Crypto rakeback is awesome. If you can break even. I couldnt. It cost me my bankroll. Careful out there, those are probably the toughest games on the net.

You will not one-table for a living, as has been said. And dont take that as a "you gotta learn to multitable RIGHT NOW" either. Keep it as a hobby for a while, move up in stakes.

[bigspenda73]

Yea, I was a huge proponent of being able to make more the 3bb/100 at a given stake.

And I play NL now

It's a grind man, and all it takes is like one 100 hand tilty session to lose a whole week's worth of work. You need to be strong willed to do this. You need a lot of patience and you need to be able to play nearly perfect at the higher levels, i.e. 3/6 and up.

I grinded my roll up to $1600 and was playing 2/4 and doing fine. Took a shot at a juicy 3/6 game, dumped some cash, chased some losses, and dumped $400 in about an hour. You need to be really disciplined to play limit for a living.

I don't want this to be seen as a deterrent just as a caveat. Make sure you can do this. Make sure you can beat 1/2 and 2/4 at 2bb/100 and make sure you have a solid rakeback account.

[nortino]

Thanks for the pointers guys. I should probably say I'm not really thinking about giving up my day job in the near future, I was just sort of curious as to whether anybody was making serious dough playing limit, cos it seems like such a grind.
I'll take your word on the BB/100 thing eupho; I guess you've been at this longer than me. As you say, it's a hobby at the moment, and I'm slowly building my bankroll. I guess I might try a bit more multi-tabling over the next few months. I think in the long run I'll go to no-limit though, it just seems to be so full of fish. A lot of guys playing limit, even at low stakes, are clearly at least thinking about what they're doing.

[bigspenda73]

A lot of guys playing limit, even at low stakes, are clearly at least thinking about what they're doing.

NO

[Nehmer]

A lot of guys playing limit, even at low stakes, are clearly at least thinking about what they're doing.

NO

??? Not sure if you are being sarcastic here or not, but the low stakes limit games are definately WAY tougher than they used to be. This is because a lot of the players are most definately thinking about what they are doing....

[euphoricism]

The typical lowstakes LHE player has serious postflop problems but their preflop play has slowly drifted closer toward correctness. And our edge in LHE was always mostly preflop and it compounded postflop.

[bigspenda73]

A lot of guys playing limit, even at low stakes, are clearly at least thinking about what they're doing.

NO

??? Not sure if you are being sarcastic here or not, but the low stakes limit games are definately WAY tougher than they used to be. This is because a lot of the players are most definately thinking about what they are doing....

Im being dead serious. They aren't thinking until you hit 2/4. And then only half of them may be thinking. They spew a ton and it is extremely exploitable at 6max

[Ltrain]

A lot of guys playing limit, even at low stakes, are clearly at least thinking about what they're doing.

NO

??? Not sure if you are being sarcastic here or not, but the low stakes limit games are definately WAY tougher than they used to be. This is because a lot of the players are most definately thinking about what they are doing....

Im being dead serious. They aren't thinking until you hit 2/4. And then only half of them may be thinking. They spew a ton and it is extremely exploitable at 6max

Your average 2/4 to 3/6 player is not thinking much, but unfortunately the structure of a 6 max game doesn't require much thinking to take a chunk out of your winrate. At this level, you are fighting luck and the rake more than you are fighing other players. One bad 4 outer on the river that checkraises you will wipe out many TPTK battles you won by getting that one more value bet.

For example, a full ring of loose passive players (like the good old days) will net you big dollars when your raise the limping field with A,K, hit top pair, and watch everyone chase their draws. At 6 max, with the same rake structure, you now fight the same draws with less of an expectation in outcome.

As a result, making money at limit now is not impossible, but very difficult without a rakeback deal or playing on WPEX with no rake (I am also following the fish more to NL, but still play limit because I really like multitabling 6 max LHE, go figure). However, I still advocate that a serious player must at least in part play LHE 6 max (and post here to get better), even if you are breaking even for a while, as a means to really learn hold 'em skills such as position and pot odds. So few showdowns are seen at NL that without learning sound limit skills, it would be really difficult to beat NL otherwise.

[euphoricism]

The switch from LHE to NL was very, very painful for me.

[bigspenda73]

The switch from LHE to NL was very, very painful for me.

Forcing yourself to switch or the fact that you weren't doing so well to start?

[Miffed22001]

ive got a large sample of playing 5/10 on party back in the day when it was fishy and sure the rb will poor into your account as will everything else, but its horribly tedious.
I only managed to beat the game at 0.6bbs for that period as well 6tabling for 6+ hrs per day.
Fwiw, it just simply isnt worth it IMO. If you cant earn huge amounts per hr you shouldnt even consider the pro route. Ilikeaces said noone should go pro earning below $100 per hour, i think its closer to double that.

[KoRnholio]

Ilikeaces said noone should go pro earning below $100 per hour, i think its closer to double that.

I saw that post a while ago but I don't get the logic behind it. If you can earn $25/hr playing 6+ hours a day, what stops you from doing that for a living? People get by on minimum wage at McDick's on about 1/3 or less of that amount...

Personally, I've struggled a LOT with my 6max game since adopting it. I still do well in full ring, but I just can't get my head around 6max. I'm beginning to wonder if it is even beatable for 1bb/100 hands over the long term since the rake seems to eat everyone alive.

[euphoricism]

The switch from LHE to NL was very, very painful for me.

Forcing yourself to switch or the fact that you weren't doing so well to start?

Both. And really one led to the other. Wasnt confident -> didnt play good -> didn't make money -> didnt enjoy playing -> didnt play -> never got confident. Repeat the circle.

I still fight it daily, and I dont think anyone neither here on FTR nor in my real life understands just how emotionally draining it has been on me.

[euphoricism]

Korn, I agree. $100/hour is kind of a foolish standard for entering "pro status". Its more important, imo, whether you can pay your monthly costs AND put some away for a rainy day. If youre scraping by on your monthly costs, your stress factor is THROUGH THE ROOF. Trust me on that one. Yech.

[|~|ypermegachi]

I still fight it daily, and I dont think anyone neither here on FTR nor in my real life understands just how emotionally draining it has been on me.

if you hate it so much why are you still playing?

[euphoricism]

I'm pretty fucking stubborn. I want to beat it, and I wont be satisfied until I can beat it, and once I'm able to beat it, I'll love it.

I also might be delusional. Hmm.

[KY_Ace]

Don't focus too much on rakeback, a site with alot of dead money can sometimes be better a site with good rakeback. I made $3,000 in my last month on Bodog 3-tabling 4-8 6-max( $1,000 was admittedly 10% buy in bonus ) before Neteller stopped serving US customers. I cashed out via western Union and bought in at WPX for $1,500, I got $4,900 in RB and still lost $900 of my $1,500 in 1 month of 6-max 3-6.3 days ago I bought into another site with no RB that isn't PT compatible, I think I'm one of the only pros on the site. I didn't want to buy in big so I staarted with $100 at 1-2, I'm upto $800 playing $2-4 on the site now, there is so much dead money on this site it's not even funny, even more than on Bodog and there is unlimited HU raising . There are very stupid players out there, you just have to look for them, try some of the smaller sites. Most players on FTR want to use poker tracker and poker Ace HUD, so you will find less of us on sites that don't support PT, and we're the kind of players that you don't want to play against. RB is great if you're beating the rake but don't rule out the sites without it, because RB does attract the pros and indirectly reduces the amount of dead money in the game.

[KoRnholio]

Korn, I agree. $100/hour is kind of a foolish standard for entering "pro status". Its more important, imo, whether you can pay your monthly costs AND put some away for a rainy day. If youre scraping by on your monthly costs, your stress factor is THROUGH THE ROOF. Trust me on that one. Yech.

Yeah, I am moving out with a roommate on May 1st (finally :P) and am going to try playing online and live to pay the bills. I've been playing a few years total, and playing a lot since I graduated from university in May last year.

I've read all the books (too many probably...) and have a pretty solid PLO and full-ring LHE game. The swings in PLO can be wild (I've had +/- 5 buyin days), but I am a solid winner over a very large sample. I have very good bankroll management and I am severely over-rolled for the games I play in. I just know right now I couldn't take the double-sized swings if I jumped up to the next level.

It'll be an interesting experiment if anything, I can always fall back on my degree and get a real 9-5 job I'll also probably set up a new blog to monitor my progress if anyone is interested in hearing about it.

[TheGermanWunderkind]

Don't focus too much on rakeback, a site with alot of dead money can sometimes be better a site with good rakeback. I made $3,000 in my last month on Bodog 3-tabling 4-8 6-max( $1,000 was admittedly 10% buy in bonus ) before Neteller stopped serving US customers. I cashed out via western Union and bought in at WPX for $1,500, I got $4,900 in RB and still lost $900 of my $1,500 in 1 month of 6-max 3-6.3 days ago I bought into another site with no RB that isn't PT compatible, I think I'm one of the only pros on the site. I didn't want to buy in big so I staarted with $100 at 1-2, I'm upto $800 playing $2-4 on the site now, there is so much dead money on this site it's not even funny, even more than on Bodog and there is unlimited HU raising . There are very stupid players out there, you just have to look for them, try some of the smaller sites. Most players on FTR want to use poker tracker and poker Ace HUD, so you will find less of us on sites that don't support PT, and we're the kind of players that you don't want to play against. RB is great if you're beating the rake but don't rule out the sites without it, because RB does attract the pros and indirectly reduces the amount of dead money in the game.

I think making 2000$ +1000$ Bonus at Bodog is not as good making -900$ +4900$ Bonus at WPEX or did i get something wrong?

[Ltrain]

Korn, I agree. $100/hour is kind of a foolish standard for entering "pro status". Its more important, imo, whether you can pay your monthly costs AND put some away for a rainy day. If youre scraping by on your monthly costs, your stress factor is THROUGH THE ROOF. Trust me on that one. Yech.

Yeah, I am moving out with a roommate on May 1st (finally :P) and am going to try playing online and live to pay the bills. I've been playing a few years total, and playing a lot since I graduated from university in May last year.

I've read all the books (too many probably...) and have a pretty solid PLO and full-ring LHE game. The swings in PLO can be wild (I've had +/- 5 buyin days), but I am a solid winner over a very large sample. I have very good bankroll management and I am severely over-rolled for the games I play in. I just know right now I couldn't take the double-sized swings if I jumped up to the next level.

It'll be an interesting experiment if anything, I can always fall back on my degree and get a real 9-5 job I'll also probably set up a new blog to monitor my progress if anyone is interested in hearing about it.

If you do go looking for that 9 to 5 job, remember you will have to explain the gap in your resume, and some employers may not be receptive to your answer. Also, it is good to hear you have your degree, anyone reading this board must at least complete their education or you are really doing yourself a disservice.

When you are young, it can be about your base expenses and fun money. However, keep in mind that over time you will be looking at:

- Insurance, health especially
- Girlfriend, to wife, to kids
- Car
- Retirement
- Savings
- Vacation
- Elder parents
- Stability

With these costs, you definitely need to rake it in on the heavy side if you want to stick around for the long term (assuming there is a long term, which may not be the case for us US players unfortunately). Personally, I think poker is a great recreation and I like the extra money, but if you are good enough to beat it at a "pro" level, you are probably also intelligent, courageous and diligent enough to make much more money doing something else with more stability.

[KoRnholio]

Personally, I think poker is a great recreation and I like the extra money, but if you are good enough to beat it at a "pro" level, you are probably also intelligent, courageous and diligent enough to make much more money doing something else with more stability.

For me, it's been mostly recreation and extra money for a couple years already. Like I said, this is more of an experiment just to see if I can do it than anything. Mid-midlife crisis at 24 years old perhaps, but it's better to try something like this now than after I have a wife/kids/etc. If I had a kid right now, I wouldn't even be thinking about trying to be a "pro" poker player.

[TheGermanWunderkind]

Your average 2/4 to 3/6 player is not thinking much, but unfortunately the structure of a 6 max game doesn't require much thinking to take a chunk out of your winrate. At this level, you are fighting luck and the rake more than you are fighing other players. One bad 4 outer on the river that checkraises you will wipe out many TPTK battles you won by getting that one more value bet.

For example, a full ring of loose passive players (like the good old days) will net you big dollars when your raise the limping field with A,K, hit top pair, and watch everyone chase their draws. At 6 max, with the same rake structure, you now fight the same draws with less of an expectation in outcome.

As a result, making money at limit now is not impossible, but very difficult without a rakeback deal or playing on WPEX with no rake (I am also following the fish more to NL, but still play limit because I really like multitabling 6 max LHE, go figure).

I think thats not true, given you play juicy tables and not crypto at 2Am german Time you can make Money without rakeback.

[KY_Ace]

Don't focus too much on rakeback, a site with alot of dead money can sometimes be better a site with good rakeback. I made $3,000 in my last month on Bodog 3-tabling 4-8 6-max( $1,000 was admittedly 10% buy in bonus ) before Neteller stopped serving US customers. I cashed out via western Union and bought in at WPX for $1,500, I got $4,900 in RB and still lost $900 of my $1,500 in 1 month of 6-max 3-6.3 days ago I bought into another site with no RB that isn't PT compatible, I think I'm one of the only pros on the site. I didn't want to buy in big so I staarted with $100 at 1-2, I'm upto $800 playing $2-4 on the site now, there is so much dead money on this site it's not even funny, even more than on Bodog and there is unlimited HU raising . There are very stupid players out there, you just have to look for them, try some of the smaller sites. Most players on FTR want to use poker tracker and poker Ace HUD, so you will find less of us on sites that don't support PT, and we're the kind of players that you don't want to play against. RB is great if you're beating the rake but don't rule out the sites without it, because RB does attract the pros and indirectly reduces the amount of dead money in the game.

I think making 2000$ +1000$ Bonus at Bodog is not as good making -900$ +4900$ Bonus at WPEX or did i get something wrong?

When I said I lost $900 I was including $4,900 in Rakeback I've actually lost $5,800 on this site before RB, I've made $1,600 on my new site this week, a site with no rakeback but lots of dead money so I'll survive.

[euphoricism]

I was propping at crypto. I had like 90% rakeback, and I still lost *thousands*. And I was kicking up like 3k in rakeback a week.

Some people bitch at me for constantly repeating that, but just be aware that if youre getting a good rake rate, the sharks are going to be all over it. The fish dont care. This makes for tough games, like WPX.

[KoRnholio]

I was propping at crypto. I had like 90% rakeback, and I still lost *thousands*. And I was kicking up like 3k in rakeback a week.

Some people bitch at me for constantly repeating that, but just be aware that if youre getting a good rake rate, the sharks are going to be all over it. The fish dont care. This makes for tough games, like WPX.

I'm glad that it's not just me that finds the crypto LHE games very tough/rockfest-like... The PLO games are plentiful at european peak times though

[elipsesjeff]

- Insurance, health especially

From a former LHE semipro to full time NLSH pro, all these numbers are a bit skewed and I'll give my opinion.

Health insurance isn't as expensive as you would think. In fact, insurance IN GENERAL isnt as expensive as you guys are making it out to be. Here is what I pay, granted, I'm a single 23 y.o. male, driving a 2006 Cobalt SS, living in a 1000 sq ft apartment in the middle of central illinois:

Car Insurance: $140/month
Renter's inurance: $15/month
Life Insurance: $25/month (150k benefit)
Health Insurance, w/ BCBS Selectblue advantage: $77/month

Total insurance cost: $260 per month.

Girlfriend, to wife, to kids

I'm single, but I live a pretty decent life. I spend lots of money on food and xbox stuff. Also, let the gf get a job and pay for herself. If you want to buy her something, $50/week would be plenty. I won't include this in my monthly cost but if you want to add it in go ahead.

- Car

Easiest answer to this question is to not Buy a new one. Leasing is a better option and it has a lower monthly payment than owning. I took a loan on my car tho so I pay $420 per month for my payment. Remember i got mine brand new and I'm 23, so this could very easily be 1/2-1/3 as much if you're not a baller like me .

- Retirement

This is a bit gray area, but $4k/year into an IRA aint all too shabby, at the time being this is my only retirement savings. I'll have other SEP plans available for me later but at the time being I'd rather not have money set aside for retirement and leave it in my BR for now. But frankly, thats my own plan and if you want money in retirement thats okay too. (I do have 50% of my BR though actively in the stock market).

- Savings

This is again another muddled area. With neteller on the fritz its a little more difficult to get money to the checking account. But i usually have enough for 1 month's expenses in there but can get money in there quickly from either the market or my poker accounts. You need to have a budget and be able to plan out effectively.

- Vacation

Not necessary. Also, online poker allows you to travel and play at the same time so this isnt that big an expense.

- Elder parents
- Stability

Now your just making up stuff....


Okay, so what's my bottom line? My estimate is that I spend ~1700/month on all expenses sans food. I also live by myself paying $750 rent (where I could easily find a place 1/2 as much). With food, fun, and other expenses (including student loans) I'm looking at roughly $2700 in expenses alone each month. This has to be after taxes, so roughly I need to make $3600 a month just to get by. I played 110-120 hours of poker last month, so roughly $30/hour is the bare minimum for me.


$30/hour sucks ass guys if you're playing online poker. I would say $50-$60 per hour after rakeback is the minimum you should make if you don't want to spend nights worried about how things are going to work out.

And finally, stay away from the crypto LHE games, both in any currency. Tons of proppers and they rake the crap out of the gdp games (3 units of gdp = 5 units of usd). Figure out that math and its so so so sick.

[Ltrain]

- Insurance, health especially

From a former LHE semipro to full time NLSH pro, all these numbers are a bit skewed and I'll give my opinion.

Health insurance isn't as expensive as you would think. In fact, insurance IN GENERAL isnt as expensive as you guys are making it out to be. Here is what I pay, granted, I'm a single 23 y.o. male, driving a 2006 Cobalt SS, living in a 1000 sq ft apartment in the middle of central illinois:

Car Insurance: $140/month
Renter's inurance: $15/month
Life Insurance: $25/month (150k benefit)
Health Insurance, w/ BCBS Selectblue advantage: $77/month

Total insurance cost: $260 per month.

Girlfriend, to wife, to kids

I'm single, but I live a pretty decent life. I spend lots of money on food and xbox stuff. Also, let the gf get a job and pay for herself. If you want to buy her something, $50/week would be plenty. I won't include this in my monthly cost but if you want to add it in go ahead.

- Car

Easiest answer to this question is to not Buy a new one. Leasing is a better option and it has a lower monthly payment than owning. I took a loan on my car tho so I pay $420 per month for my payment. Remember i got mine brand new and I'm 23, so this could very easily be 1/2-1/3 as much if you're not a baller like me .

- Retirement

This is a bit gray area, but $4k/year into an IRA aint all too shabby, at the time being this is my only retirement savings. I'll have other SEP plans available for me later but at the time being I'd rather not have money set aside for retirement and leave it in my BR for now. But frankly, thats my own plan and if you want money in retirement thats okay too. (I do have 50% of my BR though actively in the stock market).

- Savings

This is again another muddled area. With neteller on the fritz its a little more difficult to get money to the checking account. But i usually have enough for 1 month's expenses in there but can get money in there quickly from either the market or my poker accounts. You need to have a budget and be able to plan out effectively.

- Vacation

Not necessary. Also, online poker allows you to travel and play at the same time so this isnt that big an expense.

- Elder parents
- Stability

Now your just making up stuff....


Okay, so what's my bottom line? My estimate is that I spend ~1700/month on all expenses sans food. I also live by myself paying $750 rent (where I could easily find a place 1/2 as much). With food, fun, and other expenses (including student loans) I'm looking at roughly $2700 in expenses alone each month. This has to be after taxes, so roughly I need to make $3600 a month just to get by. I played 110-120 hours of poker last month, so roughly $30/hour is the bare minimum for me.


$30/hour sucks ass guys if you're playing online poker. I would say $50-$60 per hour after rakeback is the minimum you should make if you don't want to spend nights worried about how things are going to work out.

And finally, stay away from the crypto LHE games, both in any currency. Tons of proppers and they rake the crap out of the gdp games (3 units of gdp = 5 units of usd). Figure out that math and its so so so sick.

Some additions:

1. If we are talking turning "pro" as in this will be your career for the long run, the categories, including stability (i.e. 6 months of monthly expenses saved in case of emergency), are justified.
2. You forgot disability insurance. What if you have an accident and cannot play cards? These policies are very expensive and something you should look into when you are young.
3. I am happy for you about your expense level and that you live in an area where this is a possibility. Definitely, a factor in this entire discussion is the cost of living for the persons' area. I live in Miami, FL and you don't want to know how much higher your monthly costs would be here.
4. Another problem with being "pro" is there is not a built in raise or promotional structure. Therefore, as the cost of living inevitably goes up, you do not have the same expected raise in income. Your raise in income is influenced by variance, the quality of the games, and your ability to get better, which is on a utility curve.

Again, if I was still in college, I would definitely be trying to be a "pro", at least in the summer, it would be a great experiement and a lot of fun at a time when it can be done because your expenses are usually the lowest they will be your entire life and you can afford to take more chances. The above is not meant to dissuade someone from being pro for a while or at least make money on the side. Just a bit of realism into the debate if you someone was looking at being a pro as a long term career.

[biondino]

I would have loved to have been able to play poker as a summer job when I was at college, rather than sweat away in offices for $6 an hour. But now? Even though I earn as much per hour playing poker as I do working, it's not even the same ballpark. I want a CAREER, I want to progress, I want to matter. I don't want the uncertainty, the variance, the psychological torment.

Ah well, more's the pity I only discovered the game at the age of 30.

[elipsesjeff]

I want to matter

HA!

Biondino speaks true though, to people who have so much time invested in other careers and have obligations it isnt very smart to go pro playing anything less than say 10/20 LHE with substantial experience.

[dev]

I think my $.02 is relevant here.

I've been supporting myself almost exclusively through poker for 15 months or so. That said, most of my games are B+M, I just started playing online again for the 4th time because my results here have been spotty.

Euphoricism wasn't kidding, it's the most stressful work I can think of. I too am stubborn though, and I loath the idea of getting a job. I have been sending out my resume, but I am still torn on the issue of whether to get a job or not.

I've been broke. I've borrowed money for shitty little bar tourneys so I could rebuild a bankroll. I've taken pretty aweful deals to play staked in games that I kill. It sucks. I have also been pretty lax in my bankroll and time management. I'm hoping online poker can help me stay on track in both departments (PT, baby, I've got proof of my play!).

I don't play limit online, not really by choice, I've just never bothered. I also don't have any rakeback because I've signed up for almost every site in existance already for bonus whoring a year or so ago.

I live pretty light, I'm in a beach town in New England and I can live on $50/day. Still, I went about it the wrong way, and now I just don't want to give it up. If you do go pro, listen to all this advice. All the skill in the world can't help if you don't make enough to cover variance. Eventually you burn out, trust me.

[koolmoe]

Here is what I pay:

Life Insurance: $25/month (150k benefit)

Why?

[JMO]

I think my $.02 is relevant here.

I've been supporting myself almost exclusively through poker for 15 months or so. That said, most of my games are B+M, I just started playing online again for the 4th time because my results here have been spotty.

Euphoricism wasn't kidding, it's the most stressful work I can think of. I too am stubborn though, and I loath the idea of getting a job. I have been sending out my resume, but I am still torn on the issue of whether to get a job or not.

I've been broke. I've borrowed money for shitty little bar tourneys so I could rebuild a bankroll. I've taken pretty aweful deals to play staked in games that I kill. It sucks. I have also been pretty lax in my bankroll and time management. I'm hoping online poker can help me stay on track in both departments (PT, baby, I've got proof of my play!).

I don't play limit online, not really by choice, I've just never bothered. I also don't have any rakeback because I've signed up for almost every site in existance already for bonus whoring a year or so ago.

I live pretty light, I'm in a beach town in New England and I can live on $50/day. Still, I went about it the wrong way, and now I just don't want to give it up. If you do go pro, listen to all this advice. All the skill in the world can't help if you don't make enough to cover variance. Eventually you burn out, trust me.

Hey is it possible to get rakeback at sites that you have already signed up to?

[pokerfanatic]

I think my $.02 is relevant here.

I've been supporting myself almost exclusively through poker for 15 months or so. That said, most of my games are B+M, I just started playing online again for the 4th time because my results here have been spotty.

Euphoricism wasn't kidding, it's the most stressful work I can think of. I too am stubborn though, and I loath the idea of getting a job. I have been sending out my resume, but I am still torn on the issue of whether to get a job or not.

I've been broke. I've borrowed money for shitty little bar tourneys so I could rebuild a bankroll. I've taken pretty aweful deals to play staked in games that I kill. It sucks. I have also been pretty lax in my bankroll and time management. I'm hoping online poker can help me stay on track in both departments (PT, baby, I've got proof of my play!).

I don't play limit online, not really by choice, I've just never bothered. I also don't have any rakeback because I've signed up for almost every site in existance already for bonus whoring a year or so ago.

I live pretty light, I'm in a beach town in New England and I can live on $50/day. Still, I went about it the wrong way, and now I just don't want to give it up. If you do go pro, listen to all this advice. All the skill in the world can't help if you don't make enough to cover variance. Eventually you burn out, trust me.

Hey is it possible to get rakeback at sites that you have already signed up to?

nope unless you sing up a whole new account and GL with that...

[euphoricism]

Here is what I pay:

Life Insurance: $25/month (150k benefit)

Why?

Yeah.. why? I love ya and all but if you croak who needs the money? You got some dependents we arent aware of?

[pokerfanatic]

Here is what I pay:

Life Insurance: $25/month (150k benefit)

Why?

Yeah.. why? I love ya and all but if you croak who needs the money? You got some dependents we arent aware of?

lol, this is true, health insurance would be a bettor $ amount spent...

[Matrix21]

I'll give you some "REAL LIFE" advise. I play limit poker for a living and I started doing so with 4 - 8 limit. The first thing you need to throw out of your head is this talk about 1 - 2 BB per hour, "nonsense". If you want to beat the rake on 4 - 8 forget about it, not going to happen but guess what... you're trying to profit, not beat the house rake. The net profit you take home is all that matters. Divide your net profit by the number of hours you play and there you go, that's your hourly rate, the rest is statistical talk not real life cash flow in the pocket. Move up to 8 - 16 or 10 - 20 when you can but not too soon. Yes, you have to put in some long hours when you play. I normally make between $300 - $500 per session. The players averaging 1 - 2 BB's per hours and less are not the players you fear, they are your meal. I'm a real player and play in Las Vegas. Hope to see any of you on the table. Have no fear and focus.

[eugmac]

well thanks for bumping this thread to give us solid real life advice.

[Pascal]

Forget BB per hour, try to profit not beat the rake, work out your hourly because THAT TELLS YOU EVERYTHING

[eugmac]

yeah because in live poker your sample size is so much bigger and therefore your winrate starts reflecting your play a lot sooner.

[BigTanking]

I play to supplement my income (though it usually isn't much) but also play for fun. Because I play mostly for fun I limit my time at the tables whether live or online. If your mission is to make a living good luck. I think the percentages of players actually "making a living" exclusively playing poker is very low. Just my opinion on that.

[jyms]

And what is your opinion on a guy that answers someone who posted back in 2007?

[Luco]

And what is your opinion on a guy that answers someone who posted back in 2007?

Do you ever think for a moment 'oh, _____ is back' before you realise it's just a bump?

[Keith]

And what is your opinion on a guy that answers someone who posted back in 2007?

That he'll have just made the switch to NLHE when everyone else is playing PLO or open face chinese poker.

[Poker Orifice]

I'm single, but .... If you want to buy her something, $50/week would be plenty.

I wonder if there is any correlation between these two ^
(sorry... couldn't resist)