The problem with Islam

[spoonitnow]

Hey guys, I'm a member of the KKK, but I'm not one of those extremists. I'm about peace and love and just living my life, so let me in.

[JKDS]

Hey guys, I'm a conservative guy who is anti abortion. But I'm not one of those extremists who shoots up abortion clinics. Let me in

[MadMojoMonkey]

Hey guys, I'm a member of the KKK, but I'm not one of those extremists. I'm about peace and love and just living my life, so let me in.

In Murca, we do let them in. Then we grant them petitions to hold assemblies. We may even post extra law enforcement on that day. You may think it's to protect the town from those hateful KKKs, but it's usually the opposite.

Down with ignorant hate. Up with freedom to express your opinions, no matter how much they piss off other people.

[spoonitnow]

Meaning of analogy -------------------->
<-------------------- Both of you

[wufwugy]

Down with ignorant hate.

Where is this ignorant hate? Accusing us as being ignorant and hateful is a total cop-out and lazy, because you know us better than that. The only reason I'm comfortable posting controversial things like this here is because I have confidence that you guys know me better than to think it comes from a place of bigotry. Maybe I should reconsider that now.

This has nothing to do with Muslims as individuals or how they treat people socially. It doesn't even have anything to do with how Muslims individually view the world or the things they think. It has to do with what the religion itself teaches and with how the modern world gives it special treatment.

[spoonitnow]

Where is this ignorant hate? Accusing us as being ignorant and hateful is a total cop-out and lazy, because you know us better than that. The only reason I'm comfortable posting controversial things like this here is because I have confidence that you guys know me better than to think it comes from a place of bigotry. Maybe I should reconsider that now.

This has nothing to do with Muslims as individuals or how they treat people socially. It doesn't even have anything to do with how Muslims individually view the world or the things they think. It has to do with what the religion itself teaches and with how the modern world gives it special treatment.

There you go using logic again. You should know better by now.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Accusing us as being ignorant and hateful is a total cop-out and lazy, because you know us better than that.

I don't even know why you chose to place yourself on that side of that statement.

My post was about Murca, not wufwugy.

EDIT: Wait. Are you a KKK, wuf?

[MadMojoMonkey]

This has nothing to do with Muslims as individuals or how they treat people socially. It doesn't even have anything to do with how Muslims individually view the world or the things they think. It has to do with what the religion itself teaches and with how the modern world gives it special treatment.

I am not convinced that you are reasonably separating these concepts.

I am not convinced any of your statements come from anywhere but ethnocentrism, or cultural-centrism, or whatever the right word for you extrapolating way beyond your practical knowledge base and drawing conclusions which vilify people.

I am not convinced you have more than 1% of a clue as to what the religion teaches, much less enough information to offer an informed criticism.

***
You're a college student, right? Don't they offer any comparative religion courses?

You read, right? Don't they sell the Koran?

You have conversations, right? I heard Muslim people have conversations, too.

I could go on, but the mere fact that you want to blab your "They're bad; we're good" story here and not to someone who is an actual Muslim says more about you and this thread than you've been able to dissuade with any further points you've made.

***
What are your actual questions and what is a reasonable plan of action to seek those answers?

[chardrian]

I rarely, if ever, get pms

[wufwugy]

I nearly deleted this post because it's much more abrasive and accusatory than I like, but I think it needs to be posted. Every one of your points have been personal attacks. It needs to be said so maybe you won't do it next time.

I am not convinced that you are reasonably separating these concepts.

Because you don't want to. You want me to be your bad guy. You say you don't, but you do. Get over your kick that I'm the insipid dweeb you've always wanted me to be. There has hardly been an interaction between us where you don't treat me like a child.

I am not convinced any of your statements come from anywhere but ethnocentrism, or cultural-centrism, or whatever the right word for you extrapolating way beyond your practical knowledge base and drawing conclusions which vilify people.

You have imagined that I have vilified people. By not evaluating points and instead leaping to conclusions at the instant of seeing "Islam" and "something not awesome" in the same sentence, you're contributing to the problem.

I am not convinced you have more than 1% of a clue as to what the religion teaches, much less enough information to offer an informed criticism.

Of course you're not convinced. Your prerogative regarding me has long been to assume first, think last.

***
You're a college student, right? Don't they offer any comparative religion courses?

You read, right? Don't they sell the Koran?

You have conversations, right? I heard Muslim people have conversations, too.

More assume first, think last. You have no idea what I know or don't know, but because you don't like the words that come from my mouth, you assume it's all comfortably in the "don't know" category. Your only responses to me have been ad hominems and attempts to discredit. All of them. You have yet to attempt to evaluate my points and defeat them on the merits. The sad thing is that if your position is the correct one, it would be pretty easy to beat up my ideas on the merits.

I could go on, but the mere fact that you want to blab your "They're bad; we're good" story here

Everything I've said has gone over your head. Not only does my thesis have nothing to do with "they're bad; we're good", but every point of substantiation I've used doesn't either.

and not to someone who is an actual Muslim says more about you and this thread than you've been able to dissuade with any further points you've made.

You couldn't use lazier logic if you tried. So, because I post stuff on this board, it must be the case that I do it as a last resort of my frustrated bigotry?

***
What are your actual questions and what is a reasonable plan of action to seek those answers?

Why do the outlandish teachings of mainstream Islamic get a pass? These data do NOT represent the fringe of Islamic ideals. They represent the mainstream. If western Christians held ideals this egregious, we'd be knocking their doors down.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pa...nion-polls.htm

BTW the list includes more than just the extreme of extreme ideals. The more "moderate" ideals are also extreme, but as I intended this OP for, they're ignored. Examples:

51% of British Muslims believe a woman cannot marry a non-Muslim
51% believe a Muslim woman may marry without a guardian's consent
Muslim-Americans four times more likely to say that women should not work outside the home.
A survey of Muslim women in Paris suburbs found that three-quarters of them wear their masks out of fear - including fear of violence.

If these were statistics of Christians, heads would roll.




The silly thing about all this is that if you had initially responded with "it looks to me like you think Muslims are bad people; surely you don't think that", I would have responded with how I think the vast majority of Muslims are good people and how a majority of American Muslims are straying from many of the negatives taught by mainstream Islam. And we would have been done with this bullshit. But no, you think you're Batman and I'm your Joker.

[wufwugy]

pictures....Mohammad was a general...

I've kept meaning to say that this was a really quality post. GJ abooborilla.

[JKDS]

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...und-the-world/

This was cool

[wufwugy]

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...und-the-world/

This was cool

Indeed. Two points:

One: this is strong evidence supporting the claims that mainstream Islam is engaging in what I referred to ITT as implicit acceptance of extremism in the name of Islam, and that American Muslims are more divergent than global Muslims from mainstream Islam (and probably diverging at a faster rate):

Our 2011 survey of Muslim Americans found that roughly half of U.S. Muslims (48%) say their own religious leaders have not done enough to speak out against Islamic extremists.

Two: I would predict that Muslims' views of violent extremism in the name of Islam have been quickly turning less favorable since ISIS mainly targets Muslims. It's easy to hold a favorable view of al Qaeda if it just attacks the West for blasphemy, but it's not so hot to hold a favorable view of ISIS when it enslaves and murders all but the most devout of Muslims in large numbers.

[MadMojoMonkey]

@wuf: you've never been more wrong about my position.
I don't think you're a child. I think you trust your feelings over your empiricism.

I think you feel like you can somehow separate statements about someone's morality from statements about their moral character. I do not think too many people in the world would agree with this sentiment.

I think you're saying that Islamic morality is inferior to other moralities. I find this to be a personal attack against every educated Muslim in the world who is capable of critical thinking by accusing them of either being malicious or too stupid to embrace an objective perspective.

The implicit statement you're making is that our values (morality) are correct, and other moral systems are incorrect. My point is that all moral systems are the amalgamation of a history of poor compromises, and none is better than any others in comparison. They serve different purposes and will or will not hold up over time. Islamic culture has held up over time, and as such it represents a valid way for humans to organize a society. If it is different from other cultures, then so what? I don't even see why this is an issue.

All the minutia of what you're picking nits about are either cultural differences or gross misunderstandings.

You say that I haven't taken your points seriously, but I have. I think you're being closed-minded on this topic, and all of your points are circumstantial and stem from sensationalism. I have not read one single thought from you which felt like you were looking for solutions, just trying to point fingers and name problems. Which is fine if you understand the system you're trying to fix, but I do not get any sense of real understanding from you. I don't get any sense that you understand that different cultures my be dramatically opposed in value systems, but still be perfectly viable (you love that word, right) systems.

If you are embracing a position of curiosity and understanding, then I fully support you. If you're spouting off an agenda which treats humans as un-thinking and un-caring individuals, then I call BS on your world-view.

This is not a comic strip and we're not super heroes. I don't see any benefit to glorifying this conversation as an epic battle of wits. I really don't care that much about this topic. I have no interest in trying to save the world or solve its problems, unless they're physics-based.

[spoonitnow]

lol I don't think we should give him the OngBonga treatment, but damn

[wufwugy]

@wuf: you've never been more wrong about my position.
I don't think you're a child. I think you trust your feelings over your empiricism.

I think you feel like you can somehow separate statements about someone's morality from statements about their moral character. I do not think too many people in the world would agree with this sentiment.

I think you're saying that Islamic morality is inferior to other moralities. I find this to be a personal attack against every educated Muslim in the world who is capable of critical thinking by accusing them of either being malicious or too stupid to embrace an objective perspective.

The implicit statement you're making is that our values (morality) are correct, and other moral systems are incorrect. My point is that all moral systems are the amalgamation of a history of poor compromises, and none is better than any others in comparison. They serve different purposes and will or will not hold up over time. Islamic culture has held up over time, and as such it represents a valid way for humans to organize a society. If it is different from other cultures, then so what? I don't even see why this is an issue.

All the minutia of what you're picking nits about are either cultural differences or gross misunderstandings.

You say that I haven't taken your points seriously, but I have. I think you're being closed-minded on this topic, and all of your points are circumstantial and stem from sensationalism. I have not read one single thought from you which felt like you were looking for solutions, just trying to point fingers and name problems. Which is fine if you understand the system you're trying to fix, but I do not get any sense of real understanding from you. I don't get any sense that you understand that different cultures my be dramatically opposed in value systems, but still be perfectly viable (you love that word, right) systems.

If you are embracing a position of curiosity and understanding, then I fully support you. If you're spouting off an agenda which treats humans as un-thinking and un-caring individuals, then I call BS on your world-view.

This is not a comic strip and we're not super heroes. I don't see any benefit to glorifying this conversation as an epic battle of wits. I really don't care that much about this topic. I have no interest in trying to save the world or solve its problems, unless they're physics-based.

This thread is a response to the framing of mainstream Islam as "moderate". The use of this terminology precludes the notion that people are unconcerned with its value system; instead the framing is stating that its value system is compatible with the mainstream West. My issue is that "moderate" is being misused and that which is called a compatible Islamic value system with the western value system is in fact not compatible.

You're on a different note than us (than most every member of society in the conversation). You're positing a sort of cultural determinism of morals that stretches beyond the views of most. When mainstream Islam teaches such behavior that women clothe themselves in such a way to ward off violence, do you think this is totally cool because culture?

[MadMojoMonkey]

This thread is a response to the framing of mainstream Islam as "moderate". The use of this terminology precludes the notion that people are unconcerned with its value system; instead the framing is stating that its value system is compatible with the mainstream West. My issue is that "moderate" is being misused and that which is called a compatible Islamic value system with the western value system is in fact not compatible.

Fine. My issue is that you're pulling your notion of "mainstream" from spurious sources.

My contention is that you may know the first thing about mainstream Muslim culture, but you don't know the million other things.

You're on a different note than us (than most every member of society in the conversation). You're positing a sort of cultural determinism of morals that stretches beyond the views of most.

A) I never claimed to speak for anyone but myself.
B) What's your point?

Most people are short-sighted and quick to temper. That doesn't make it an ideal.

When mainstream Islam teaches such behavior that women clothe themselves in such a way to ward off violence, do you think this is totally cool because culture?

Yes.

If you understand the depth of their scripture or the responsibility placed on men which is (theoretically) an equal burden for their faith as the women's burden, then we can keep talking.

For you to say, "Look, they don't let their women wear whatever they want!" as though it's somehow either true or bad is just weird to me. You are not allowed to wear dresses and face makeup. If you do so in public, you will likely be ridiculed and possibly assaulted by homophobic idiot assholes who do not represent the wider views of your culture. Is this an argument for how oppressive the Western culture is towards men?

[spoonitnow]

Who else votes to just stop engaging him or replying to him?

[wufwugy]

Fine. My issue is that you're pulling your notion of "mainstream" from spurious sources.

Leading pollsters are spurious sources? The claim that mainstream Islam does not include the types of social views I've alluded to is held only by a rather small minority. If you're okay with arguing that this tiny minority is the correct one, I'm totally fine with that since I have no position on the matter since my posts have been a response to the fact that the vast majority do not share your view.

A) I never claimed to speak for anyone but myself.
B) What's your point?

Your statements have been confusing since you've been talking about something much different than the rest of us have ITT. I have not posted about things where the view of cultural determinism of morality is relevant.

Yes.

Where do you draw the line?

If you understand the depth of their scripture

That actually doesn't matter. It matters what is taught. There are all sorts of awful things that can be found in the Bible that are not taught by Christians, for example.

or the responsibility placed on men which is (theoretically) an equal burden for their faith as the women's burden, then we can keep talking.

How so?

For you to say, "Look, they don't let their women wear whatever they want!" as though it's somehow either true or bad is just weird to me. You are not allowed to wear dresses and face makeup. If you do so in public, you will likely be ridiculed and possibly assaulted by homophobic idiot assholes who do not represent the wider views of your culture. Is this an argument for how oppressive the Western culture is towards men?

Of course it doesn't represent the wider views of western culture towards men. That view is extremely sparsely held. However, it is a mistake to conflate this fringe belief in western culture with how the belief operates in the Islamic world. It is extremely not fringe there. The analogy you chose would be appropriate if the example was me wearing t-shirt with a picture of a particular person on it then me being heftily punished for it and that representing the mainstream view of my culture. Or if a woman in heels were to be punished and that representing the mainstream view of her culture.

[wufwugy]

Who else votes to just stop engaging him or replying to him?

i bet you would be pretty talented at defeating bad arguments if you wanted/tried.

[spoonitnow]

i bet you would be pretty talented at defeating bad arguments if you wanted/tried.

[not trolling]

I kind of just contribute contrarian commentary here and there and move on. It's basically an over-the-top version of my beliefs or beliefs I don't actually care about but that I know is the opposite of the status quo of this group, particularly if it's an easy position to defend with smartass remarks and conservative rhetoric.

Overall, it's more fun for me and doesn't leave me frustrated.

[/not trolling]

[MadMojoMonkey]

Wuf. None of the answers you seek are in this thread.

Pollsters can give you great results on a certain class of questions. Ultimately, this scale of concern you express is beyond the scope of asking people for un-nuanced answers to complicated human questions.

So yes, I call BS on claiming that pollsters are equipped to provide useful data on this. It's just too big a topic; too personal; too much perceived to be at stake for answers to be meaningful. We're talking about a complex human psychologically driven feedback system. Ask any psychologist about how much they trust polls for this scale of quandary.

***
My opinions on morality are only important if they resonate a Truth with you.

I'm not drawing the lines. If it were up to me, I'd almost always tell people to chill out and not make a problem for someone else unless they absolutely had to. Be a problem solver, not a problem creator.

***
For you, I'd say this helps me out a great deal in my day to day life:
Live the roll until you earn control.
It helps me to remember that there is a lot of BS that flows anyone's way in life, and you can only affect control over those systems you thoroughly understand. In order to understand them, you need to immerse yourself in them. No one can give you the ability to understand an elegant solution. You have to earn that privilege with diligence and patience. If you're not willing to immerse yourself in the problem, then walk away and leave it for someone who is. Find something you are more passionate about to spend your time on.

Take it or leave it.

I'm not going to awkwardly explain Islam to you. I never had faith in a benevolent God who is capable of interacting with the universe. I could maybe entertain the notion of one or the other, but definitely not both. I am not qualified to explain the ins and outs of Islam.

Shit, I was raised Catholic, and I'd be a poor candidate to explain the differences between Catholocism and any other form of Christianity. (I understand the Catholics have the kneeling and chanting on lock-down, though.)

The only core belief I bring is to fight ignorance with tactics. Clearly state what you're trying to figure out. Develop and execute a plan to acquire that knowledge. Actively doubt that what you think you are learning is what you were actually trying to learn. Rinse and repeat.

[spoonitnow]

Can anyone understand this incoherent shit?

[MadMojoMonkey]

TL;DR

1) polls can not provide nuanced answers to complicated questions.

2) I claim no moral authority.

3) If you want to solve big problems, you have to dedicate yourself to them.

4) I am not the guy to try to explain Islam to anyone. I only know that I have lived with and worked with Muslim people and they're cool as beans.

5) Science, bitches!

[wufwugy]

[not trolling]

I kind of just contribute contrarian commentary here and there and move on. It's basically an over-the-top version of my beliefs or beliefs I don't actually care about but that I know is the opposite of the status quo of this group, particularly if it's an easy position to defend with smartass remarks and conservative rhetoric.

Overall, it's more fun for me and doesn't leave me frustrated.

[/not trolling]

something i discovered from my days as a dyed-in-the-wool creationist: if i dont debate ideas and adopt the arguments of those stronger than my own, im in for a world of hurt.

[spoonitnow]

something i discovered from my days as a dyed-in-the-wool creationist: if i dont debate ideas and adopt the arguments of those stronger than my own, im in for a world of hurt.

Debating ideas takes too much time that could be used to get even more ass and pile up a bunch of money, so it's not all that interesting to me at this point. Me eight years ago would have probably been all over it, though.

[spoonitnow]

TL;DR

1) polls can not provide nuanced answers to complicated questions.

2) I claim no moral authority.

3) If you want to solve big problems, you have to dedicate yourself to them.

4) I am not the guy to try to explain Islam to anyone. I only know that I have lived with and worked with Muslim people and they're cool as beans.

5) Science, bitches!

[rong]

http://www.kenanmalik.com/essays/against_mc.html

An essay against multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism is the product of political defeat. The end of the Cold War, the collapse of the left, the defeat of most liberation movements in the third world and the demise of social movements in the West, have all transformed political consciousness. The quest for equality has increasingly been abandoned in favour of the claim to a diverse society. Campaigning for equality means challenging accepted practices, being willing to march against the grain, to believe in the possibility of social transformation. Conversely, celebrating differences between peoples allows us to accept society as it is - it says little more than 'We live in a diverse world, enjoy it'. As the American writer Nancy Fraser has put it, 'The remedy required to redress injustice will be cultural recognition, as opposed to political-economic redistribution.' Indeed so deeply attached are multiculturalists to the idea of cultural, as opposed to economic or political justice, that David Bromwich is led to wonder whether intellectuals today would oppose economic slavery if it lacked any racial or cultural dimension.

Not only is the demand for the 'recognition' the product of political pessimism, it has also become a potential means of implementing deeply authoritarian policies. Consider, for instance, Tariq Modood's distinction between what he calls the 'equality of individualism' and the 'equality encompassing public ethnicity: equality as not having to hide or apologise for one's origins, family or community, but requiring others to show respect for them, and adapt public attitudes and arrangements so that the heritage they represent is encouraged rather than contemptuously expect them to wither away.'

Why should I, as an atheist, be expected to show respect for Christian, Islamic or Jewish cultures whose views and arguments I often find reactionary and often despicable? Why should public arrangements be adapted to fit in with the backward, misogynistic, homophobic claims that religions make? What is wrong with me wishing such cultures to 'wither away'? And how, given that I do view these and many other cultures with contempt, am I supposed to provide them with respect, without disrespecting my own views? Only, the philosopher Brian Barry suggests 'with a great deal of encouragement from the Politically Correct Thought Police'.

[spoonitnow]

One of the problems of the concept of "multiculturalism" is that it doesn't really exist in a long-lasting form. When you put people who are different around each other, then it almost inevitably leads to conflict, especially when it's in large numbers. It's a nice thought, but it does not pan out too well in the real world.

[spoonitnow]

In Hamburg, where a series of attacks also took place on New Year’s Eve, bouncers warned women not to leave nightclubs because of an increasingly hostile crowd on the streets.

But the warning was so unusual that several women ignored it and were sexually assaulted by those waiting outside.

The reason so many women in Cologne were caught up in the violence was because they believed the area around the main station would be safe

Police have now confirmed that sex attacks took place in three cities: Cologne, Hamburg and Stuttgart. So far around 120 women have come forward, claiming to be victims.

Here's an important point for multiculturalism: The idea that women who are out in public like this shouldn't be sexually assaulted is cultural. If you mix that with a culture of people who believe the opposite, then you end up with shit like these attacks.

[Warpe]

One of the problems of the concept of "multiculturalism" is that it doesn't really exist in a long-lasting form. When you put people who are different around each other, then it almost inevitably leads to conflict, especially when it's in large numbers. It's a nice thought, but it does not pan out too well in the real world.

Disagree, but then I live in Canada, an officially multicultural country.

EDIT: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/jack-je...b_8919774.html

[spoonitnow]

Disagree, but then I live in Canada, an officially multicultural country.

EDIT: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/jack-je...b_8919774.html

It works great there because it's been handled differently. That's not multiculturalism in the sense of what's going on in Europe right now. It's more of a slow assimilation into a single overriding culture, which would be possible in Europe as well if the numbers of people being brought in weren't so large. I'd say that the greater the differences between two (or more) cultures, the longer it takes to assimilate people to the degree that those cultures can mesh into one overriding culture.

Edit: This post has a list of studies related to multiculturalism and its effects on social trust and other factors that are neat and worth reading on their own outside of this discussion - https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2016...eference-list/

[wufwugy]

O dose moderate Islam teachings

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...traditionalism

[wufwugy]

Fantastic analogy. To mainstream Islam, women are pets.

https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/co...eekers/cz0da54