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  1. #1

    Default 400NL, AA deep

    Villain is one of the better regulars at this stake. He plays 24/20. Folds to 3b is 70% however we're deep. He enjoys being the outplayer. We do not have an aggressive 3b dynamic going, both of us are deep and there has not been too much 3betting going on in this session. I assume he would think my range is tighter than it actually is in this spot.

    We had an interesting hand earlier where I had the nuts and Cb flop, C/C turn and C/Shove river. He called off with two pairs IP.

    How do you go about this hand. Seems like his turnrange is gonna be like nuts or a pair, and would you think he would fold the pair to a turnbet? If, would you c/f turn. What about a c/c line?

    Unleash your thoughs


    Yatahay Network - $4 NL - Holdem - 6 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

    BTN: $642.70
    SB: $58.70
    Hero (BB): $1,001.06
    UTG: $925.43
    MP: $901.20
    CO: $412.50

    SB posts SB $2.00, Hero posts BB $4.00

    Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero has A A

    fold, MP raises to $12.00, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $60.00, MP calls $48.00

    Flop: ($122.00, 2 players) T 4 5
    Last edited by ZwiFT; 08-04-2011 at 11:51 PM. Reason: Wrong title
  2. #2
    its not showing your cbet for some reason
  3. #3
    That is because I want a full-out discussion, betsize, nobet, how do we plan to play the entire hand? Can we use outofthebox thinking? If not, why would that be bad? etc etc
  4. #4
    do u think u will gain more by 3betting aces here and then choking postflop or by calling aces here and c/r'ing (or other) postflop while keeping his range wider and throwing the reverse implied odds in his corner.

    im so tired i honestly dont even know what that means ill read this tomorrow
  5. #5
    bikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZwiFT View Post
    That is because I want a full-out discussion, betsize, nobet, how do we plan to play the entire hand? Can we use outofthebox thinking? If not, why would that be bad? etc etc
    really? i mean, c'mon really?

    just bet ffs

    ?wut
  6. #6
    I don't get this hand? It seems fairly standard, you have aces in a 3bet pot. The only reason I can assume its posted is cause its deep, in which case we bet and then re-eval the situation when raised or the board gets gross.

    $70-85 for now...
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  7. #7
    edit by bikes

    stop posting in these threads please.
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
    I don't get this hand? It seems fairly standard, you have aces in a 3bet pot. The only reason I can assume its posted is cause its deep, in which case we bet and then re-eval the situation when raised or the board gets gross.

    $70-85 for now...
    What range do you expect him to call the flop, and what range would you expect him to call a turnbet on different cards. Would he ever be likely to bluff flop, if so, would he shut down on the turn?
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
    do u think u will gain more by 3betting aces here and then choking postflop or by calling aces here and c/r'ing (or other) postflop while keeping his range wider and throwing the reverse implied odds in his corner.

    im so tired i honestly dont even know what that means ill read this tomorrow
    lol Question seems so fishy, but actually have a valid point. Assuming your going to choke before you start the hand.
  10. #10
    given stacks I'd imagine he might call with all pairs, including JJ+ (if he doesn't feel comfortable 4bet getting it in this deep). Probably might even flat AK this deep. Could also call a bunch of SC's 67s,78s, and things like 9Ts and JTs given stacks.

    He'll for sure call the flop with Tx and JJ+. He'll probably peel with a straight draw and often when ppl call AK they float low boards too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  11. #11
    his call range on flop = fkin wide, any pair, big aces, draws, floats, wtf ure deep

    I'd bet then either go c/c on turn or keep betting depending on opponent, turn cards.

    so lets see a turn
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  12. #12
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexos View Post
    lets see a turn
    .


  13. #13
    Flop: ($122.00, 2 players) T 4 5
    Hero bets $72.22 , MP calls $72.22

    Turn: ($266.44, 2 players) Q

    Please discuss any turn =)
  14. #14
    well easy turn value bet, you would barrel so many gutshots/oesd/bdFD here since queen is a scarecards to his 77-99, JJ, Tx hands. He could`ve floated that flop with like AQ/KQ/QJs easily. Do not like checking on this card
  15. #15
    +1 to lancelott

    $170-200
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  16. #16
    bikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
    +1 to lancelott

    $170-200
    +2

    ?wut
  17. #17
    i dont understand the point of this thread.
  18. #18
    i mean ... 88/211/jam is standard and best mostly. i would mix it up quite a bit on turns like 3c and 8d between bet/jamming and check/calling down.

    if you are raised on the flop standard is to call and call down on most boards .. although you can also mix in some 3betting/bet/call turn as well
    I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
  19. #19
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    To be honest I'm wondering if we are properly balanced preflop with this sizing. Even more importantly, I think it's very likely that we aren't perceived to be properly balanced.

    With that in mind I'm going to suggest c/folding the turn. Sauce is suggesting a balanced postflop strategy, but I think we can probably beat that by being exploitable in this spot, given intro.


  20. #20
    yea i hate sizing pre

    just make it 40ish
  21. #21
    I'd rather balance pre and 3bet all my hands to 60 here, than c/f this turn I believe!

    I think making it 4x OOP pre is pretty reasonable, 40 seems small here given stacks and position.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  22. #22
    No idea why we'd ever c/f turn when villain can bet JJ-KK very often or even shit like ATs every once in a while. Just betting turn seems way better to me even with this sizing preflop. I'd also make it smaller preflop.

    Edit: Wait the turn was a Q, ok that maske more sense now lol. Still not sure I like c/f though since he can bet AQ floats KK if he has it etc.
  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrogovner View Post
    edit by bikes

    stop posting in these threads please.
    lololololololololololololololol
  24. #24
    i dont understand why some of you want to c/f this turn wtf is this no set no bet attitude u guys should be short stacking if u can't handle being stacked occasionally over 100bb deep.
    Last edited by Micro2Macro; 08-08-2011 at 01:41 PM.
  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
    i dont understand why some of you want to c/f this turn wtf is this no set no bet attitude u guys should be short stacking if u can't handle being stacked occasionally over 100bb deep.
    +100

    It's not a bad thing to recognize that you're not as comfortable playing deep-stacked, and leaving tables accordingly. It's better than making big mistakes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  26. #26
    rpm's Avatar
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    i don't really like making it 5x pre, unless you think that's optimal for your whole range (which seems unlikely vs a good reg). flop bet i like. and i think B/F turn is vastly > C/F turn (i mean you'd fire AK on this turn and he'd know that right?). if my microbonk logic isn't applicable to these stakes then ignore this post at will.
  27. #27
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
    i dont understand why some of you want to c/f this turn wtf is this no set no bet attitude u guys should be short stacking if u can't handle being stacked occasionally over 100bb deep.
    Who the hell are you talking to?


  28. #28
    mostly OP because it seems like hes posting this to want to hear us tell him to give up somewhere + anyone who says we should c/f

    this thread is pointless, it should be moved to the BC
  29. #29
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
    mostly OP because it seems like hes posting this to want to hear us tell him to give up somewhere + anyone who says we should c/f

    this thread is pointless, it should be moved to the BC
    The quality of the replies in this thread is what makes it pointless. It's totally possible to play like a nit and beat todays euro-dominated playground, but (perceived) nits need a different gameplan.

    I would be super happy betting this turn myself, but that's totally irrelevant.


  30. #30
    i would think that anyone who cannot happily bet this turn is doing something very wrong.
  31. #31
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
    cf is pretty reasonable if you have a nits image and he blasts 4/5 pot when you check. It's pretty clear that you need to evaluate his bet size and his tendencies if he does bet but just saying cf is nuts, most ppl will be unbalanced in their sizing with these stacks.
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  32. #32
    Hey guys,

    Lots of hate, lots of awesome replies. Both to be expected when creating this thread. When I create threads the majority of the time I make them in a hurry. And with this one, that has lead the replies to derail from what I intended to do with the thread.

    I do realize for most players out there this turn would be a easy bet, even for me. I'm not that tight.

    I'm gonna pose the original question for this thread one last time and after a few replies we can conclude the thread;

    Would you ever consider taking a C/C line here vs a aggro regular because you're hand would potentially be looking like a random Tx or AK type hand, in which would call flop, call turn alot and fold to a river barrel (which we do not intend to do).

    I've made my own conclusion talking to some friends, but would like to hear you're!
  33. #33
    If I had solid reads on villain being floaty and aggro/bluffy then I don't mind c/c here sometimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  34. #34
    Doesn't it mean that if you think you cant go for 3 streets of value here you should 3bet some scs and blast it away post flop and show immense profit.
  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Petulie View Post
    lololololololololololololololol
    shouldnt this post be subject to the same bs treatment by bikes?
    [20:19] <Zill4> god
    [20:19] <Zill4> u guys
    [20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
    [20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
  36. #36
    pantherhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauce123 View Post

    if you are raised on the flop standard is to call and call down on most boards
    The thing I don't understand about this is that if we're b/c the flop isn't our range pretty well defined and so if we're calling down on most boards villain would have to be pretty confident of getting us to fold AA - but who actually follows through with bluffs following an opponent's bet/call on this flop?
    Last edited by pantherhound; 08-15-2011 at 10:35 AM.
  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by pantherhound View Post
    The thing I don't understand about this is that if we're b/c the flop isn't our range pretty well defined and so if we're calling down on most boards villain would have to be pretty confident of getting us to fold AA - but who actually follows through with bluffs following an opponent's bet/call on this flop?
    No, because I wouldn't fold AK particularly often to a flop raise either ! That leaves me lots of combos of hands which might fold later and provides my opponent an incentive to raise hands like Tx for value !
    I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
  38. #38
    pantherhound's Avatar
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    But are you not just calling AK oop because you're you and have a much better handle on postflop reads than most everyone else in the thread? Would be interested in seeing how many $200NL and below players are b/c AK oop with any meaningful frequency with a plan for the hand. If you are, is it with the knowledge that most people are shutting down with their bluffs and so it should check down w/o being faced with tough turn and river decisions?
  39. #39
    Without an aggressive 3betting dynamic I think your best option is to c/c turn and c/decide river (if the turn checks through, it's really opponent dependent as to whether u should check or bet river.) Only a VERY ambitious player is going to peel a two barrel here with a one pair holding on the majority of turns.

    It's just too obvious you have at worst AK and QQ+ for value (QQ probably questionable).

    If you are looking for another answer then the mistake was probably made before the hand was played (i.e. you haven't 3bet bluffed enough in order to merit most opponents peeling a turn bet w/ just 1pr hands.)
  40. #40
    pantherhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pantherhound View Post
    But are you not just calling AK oop because you're you and have a much better handle on postflop reads than most everyone else in the thread? Would be interested in seeing how many $200NL and below players are b/c AK oop with any meaningful frequency with a plan for the hand. If you are, is it with the knowledge that most people are shutting down with their bluffs and so it should check down w/o being faced with tough turn and river decisions?
    bump?
  41. #41
    You have to bet, if you go c/c c/c here with hands like AA KK QQ etc.. you severely limit your ability to run bluffs in 3 bet pots deep on boards like this. I love betting betting betting.

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