A Song of Ice and Fire ***MAJOR SPOILERS from a game of thrones up to TWOW***

[wufwugy]

Meaning?

[bikes]

also since they cut vic my dreams of ray stevenson as vic and kevin mckidd as jon conn are dead!

[bikes]

oh wait nvm you probably havent read TWOW chapters. ignore what i said pls.

[wufwugy]

you mean cut vic from the show? im assuming that as well.

no i havent read the twow chapters. should i? i cant imagine anything good is given away in them

[wufwugy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that all of GRRM's women are idiots who need to be saved by men. I started to notice this in AFFC, where all the lead females, particularly Cersei and Brienne, are just dummies. I adore Cersei's arc for the pseudo-dramatic irony in that the reader strongly suspects she's making all the wrong moves, and Brienne has absolutely no ability to keep herself from having to be saved by men.

So I started looking for this elsewhere. Catelyn was always a fucking idiot. At every opportunity she tripped over herself to assume her feelings were the most legitimate, and her house crumbled because of it. Asha seemed bold and daring with the kingsmoot, but the last we've seen of her has her waiting until her enemy is at her doorstep then she magically decides it's time to flee. At first it seems Melisandre is intelligent, except oh wait, she can't even fucking tell that Stannis not being Azor Ahai is the most obvious thing in the world. She sees visions telling her it isn't Stannis, yet chooses to ignore them and keep assuming he is. The Dorne story is the best. Talk about an adventure in ignorant, aggressive women nearly foiling the plans of the calm and thoughtful man, only to discover he was ten steps ahead of them the whole time. Sansa is too weak and submissive to use for any example. Lysa was fooled by her love. I'm too confused about what's going on with Arya to say stuff about her. Dany seems the least obvious of this theme, but even she seems to just make idiot decision after idiot decision.

And all these chicks need men to bail them out of their idiocy. Cersei needs Jaime and Kevan. Tywin even warned us of how foolish she is. Brienne needs Hyle and Gendry. Dany needs literally ever man who has drawn breath within ten feet of her. Arianne and the sand snakes were set straight by Doran. Sansa was utterly helpless except for Littlefinger.. The whole Arya arc has her jumping from male savior to savior: Syrio, Jaqen, Hound, Kindly Man.

Contrast this to the men. They're the rocks, calling the shots, setting things straight. Jorah was always right and Dany didn't listen. Tywin and Tyrion were always right and Cersei didn't listen. Doran was right and Arianne didn't listen. Jaime was right and Brienne didn't listen.

I'm not saying GRRM is sexist. I think that would be a stupid claim. I just think it's funny that so many people who like to find sexism wherever they can think that GRRM writes women so well. I agree that he writes women better than most, but I also find it pretty hilarious they mostly still fit the stereotype that they're not as rational, self-dependent, and strong as men

[bikes]

you mean cut vic from the show? im assuming that as well.

no i havent read the twow chapters. should i? i cant imagine anything good is given away in them

read!

[JKDS]

Wuf, what about all the dumb fucks on the wall? Im sure theres a million other examples of men being dumb too.

[wufwugy]

Wuf, what about all the dumb fucks on the wall? Im sure theres a million other examples of men being dumb too.

The men certainly aren't devoid of idiocy. I mean, Robb is probably the best example, but I think the mens' poor decision making is a little subdued. The theme I'm getting at is specifically twofold: (1) women creating their own downfall from bad decisions, and (2) men having to bail them out. Brienne, Cersei, and Arianne are fantastic examples of this. I'm not referring to the existence of men who have made bad decisions, like all those on the wall did at some point, but to the storytelling process where we see that the women are constantly getting themselves into trouble and getting bailed out by men in ways that the men are not

Take Stannis for example, he hasn't done anything dumb. Nor Davos. The only dumb thing Tyrion has done is spend a little too much time whoring and drinking. Doran and Jorah are stereotypically strong and collected. Even Jon hasn't been making any bad decisions. All the suffering the men experience has to do with being beaten by others or not foreseeing something they shouldn't be expected to. Tywin had no reason to believe that Tyrion would kill him on the pot, yet Cersei was too stupid to see how obviously she was structuring her own downfall. Tywin's death was something that happened to an otherwise smart and on the ball man, but Cersei's walk of shame came because she's an arrogant moron.

There are no female equivalents of all the straight bosses, like Littlefinger, Tywin, Jaqen, Barristan, and many more. Maybe I'm not explaining it well. How about this: Davos and Brienne are sorta in the same situation. Both have been unwavering defenders of what they think is right. But Davos has zero examples of acting foolishly. All of the shit he gets in isn't anything he could have avoided. However Brienne could have avoided all of her problems. She has no idea how to make friends, and every single time she met with a tough situation, she jumps in headfirst without thinking, and she would die except that she gets saved by a man. Her circumstances are not like, say, Tyrion getting saved by Pod at the Blackwater. Tyrion had no choice, if he died it's because he was in a situation he couldn't get out of. But when Brienne was saved by Gendry, it came after she put herself in a situation that if she had a brain in her head she would know that not only was she going to lose but she wouldn't help those she was trying to in the first place

[Renton]

Asha and Arianne are reasonably well-rounded. Arianne made some mistakes but they were honest ones. It's likely that the Myrcella debacle was impossible to prevent and her motives were reasonable. Brienne is dumb but not because she's a female, she's simply incredibly young and naive. Arya is amazing, she hasn't needed any of her saviors really except perhaps Syrio. In fact, she's playing the kindly man currently.

Barbrey Ryswell is pretty badass, although certainly feminine and her motivations seem impure. But she's got a lot of power and we're still not really sure where her allegiances lie. Olenna and Margaery are pretty hardcore characters who don't make womanly mistakes.

[JKDS]

Arent Margery and the Queen of thrones pretty epic female leads? Sure you can point to shenanigans due to Cersei nonsense, but I feel like that shit wasnt their fault. There may be a larger theme going on too where characters cant survive on their own and have to lean on someone. It just so happens that there are more male characters than female ones, so statistically there arent as many female ones to lean on. Im not sure Ygritte did anything wrong either, nor Osha. Meanwhile you have lots of male leads getting owned for being retards too. (Theon, Ned Stark, and Joffrey obv). But then also Jaime Lannister's early problems all stem from foolishly deciding to throw a young kid out a window (he flew out a windowwwww), and you cant tell me Jorah was being bright during his whole "shit, ya i was totally a spy love".

So idk. I mean, theres obviously some sexism given the olden middle ages theme going on...but I dont think the females are all being oppressed by the patriarchy either. Even sansa, though i hate her so fucking much, probably deserves some credit for somehow surviving all the shit shes been put through.

[wufwugy]

The pattern breaks down with the less scene time the women get. Olenna, for example, doesn't fit, but she also doesn't get much time and is more of a foil than a central character. I only see the pattern when GRRM has had to put more effort into their stories. Even Ygritte could be said to fall into this, since, um, what was her arc? Having faith in a man and dying because of it?

Maybe my point will be better illuminated why I think the given examples of men don't fit

Theon - He acted stupidly, but he couldn't exactly avoid it and he couldn't predict the outcomes. He's a classical tragic character, nicely in line with ones like Oedipus.

Ned - I haven't finished the first book so I can't say

Joffrey - His stupidity wasn't his downfall, and it was arguably not even stupidity. Where Cersei was the arbitrator of her downfall in a way that only the stupidest of stupid person could be, Joff was eliminated for entirely different reasons than those which relate to his decisions. Furthermore, Cersei was given a path of salvation. By whom? None other than the powerful men, the always reasonable Kevan and the Sparrow, giving her deserved female shame

Jaime - Pushing Bran out the window is pretty indirect. It was the basic catalyst for everything, he wasn't exactly in a position where he shouldn't have pushed him, and I think we only see the problems in retrospect.


Okay, so outside of the theme I'm trying to substantiate, where the women are better at creating their own downfalls and then being saved by men, think about this: take note of all the times you're reading a POV and you say to yourself "you fucking retard, do not do this, you can't get out of this, you're only creating problems for yourself". I found that almost all of those are with the women. I don't recall feeling that way in any of the male POV

[wufwugy]

BTW, why do you think Arya is playing the Kindly Man? If you're referring to something in the TWOW chapters then just ignore me. But so far I am pretty unsure what's going on with Arya. This story is extremely non-standard

[wufwugy]

I honestly do not know how to feel about the show now. The s5 changes look to be so huge. The only arcs that look like will be similar are Cersei and Jon. I was honestly really looking forward to seeing Barristan taking over Meereen, but from the looks of it that won't happen. They're just destroying his character. He could be so cool. We needed to see him beat the piss out of Nero. But no, he's basically just a cardboard cutout


Oh another point I wanted to make, having to do with stuff I said about Daario in the other thread: I think the reason Daario sucks so much in the show is that if the audience were to see Dany in love with such a ridiculous man, she would lose much of her heroine qualities. The show is specifically trying to construct heroes and villains, sometimes with a mind to snatch away those heroes at the last minute.

I'd be so much happier to see Dany in all her questionable-ness, but the show is just making her vanilla and straighforward



A prediction I've had is that Jaime will die early in b5. He's just redeeming himself way too hard. I don't see how the show won't completely change everything about Jaime though

[Renton]

She's warging into cats and having wolf dreams.

[wufwugy]

I guess I still don't get it.

[wufwugy]

We don't know what the Kindly Man knows. In fact we are given some reason to suspect he might even be able to read her thoughts. He probably can't, but it's not ruled out

[Renton]

I'm just saying she's got her own objectives, mainly survival, and she's quite likely to ditch the faceless men as soon as their goals aren't aligned anymore. You should check out her TWOW chapter, it's pretty cool. Very vignette-y and not that connected to the main story, so it's fun to read on its own.

[Renton]

You should also read dunk and egg.

[bikes]

i mean when you have your opinions of women doing dumb things you have to remember arya is like 10, sansa is like 12, margery is wrecking cersei. arienne comes around to fold eventually and even she is very young. dany is also like 14 or something iirc. and the only truly stupid thing dany has done is wreck qyn martell.

while i love stannis the mannis if you think he hasn't done anything stupid you might need to reread without rose colored glasses.

[bikes]

also no one is allowed to talk shit about davos.

[wufwugy]

Stannis certainly has done stuff worth disagreeing with, but not the kind of stupid that 15 yr old girl does, which is the kind of stupid I'm talking about. Stannis is stuck between a rock and hard place. I think that's different.

The word "stupid" is probably throwing things off as well, because I'm referring to a specific trope. It seems you guys think Arianne is a good example of being not-stupid, but she's one of the best examples of fitting into the trope. She spent a whole bunch of time going against her father, only to later learn that he was already doing what she wanted behind the scenes and that she very nearly put the kibosh on it. The stereotype is along the lines of it being better if men are in control, women getting in the way, women needing to listen to daddy or their father/savior figure

I put a little more thought into it, and I think the Sansa/Ned and Dany/Jorah dynamics also fit. I haven't read up to this yet, but it seems that Ned's downfall was his daughter. His dumb daughter, not his dumb son. Doing things that dumb daughters do. And when did Dany's shit start going sour? After she kicked Jorah out. Jorah was adamant in warning her, but her emotions overwhelmed her and now she's suffering because of it

[wufwugy]

BTW I'm not saying the portrayals aren't realistic. It is totally reasonable for a naive person to act naively. I just think I've noticed a trend in almost all the major storylines where there is a woman who needs a man to help her make the right decisions

Examples like Margaery don't fit, possibly because she gets very little development time. I can't tell if she's owning Cersei because I have no idea what she thinks. She's important to the plot but she's not the driver of the plot. The drivers of the plots are those I'm seeing this trend with

[JKDS]

Isnt the last scene with Dany meant to show her rejection of exactly this trope? She essentially says "fuck the patriarchy", gets on her dragon, and flys off. She abandons her 'im a mother to you all" role, and it seems like shes gonna start beating the drums of war again (or so i hope).

[JKDS]

Idk. It seems to me that you're handwaving away any stupid decision a male character makes, and harshly criticizing even the most trivial decision a woman makes.

There could very well be a subtheme about being dependent on people, but that subtheme would apply to most characters. Stannis on the redwoman, Bran on the old gods, Jon on his wolf, Tyrion on Varys, you could even say Jorah was dependent on Dany given how messed up he gets when hes exiled.

[baudib]

Wuf I think you have something of a point but are probably taking it too far.

For instance, you discounting Olenna as a true power player. Olenna is quite clearly a near match, minimum, for Tywin. As head of her family, she's arguably done a better job of keeping the family unified, when by all rights they could have been declared enemies of the state and wiped out for aligning with Renly.

Money, of course, was a key factor there, and for all the bluster about Lannister riches, they could not keep the Realm afloat without the Tyrells.

She trained Margaery to be a better family rep than any of the Lannister children. She killed Joffrey, FFS, and framed Tyrion. This is not a woman who needs a man or who makes mistakes.

Brienne, for all her ineptitude, killed The Hound. Arya used him for all she could and abandoned him to a brutal death. Arya is not bouncing from man to man, rather, she is outwitting them (Jaqen, too), outliving them and moving on. This is not the typical behavior of a 10-year-old girl.

[wufwugy]

I haven't discounted Olenna. She is a small side character. We haven't even gotten a POV of anybody close to her. Also I'm not talking about the show. Pretty sure Brienne never even met the Hound in the books, and Olenna has a bigger role in the show. Her role is basically the same, but relative to everything else being bigger, she's much smaller in the books.

I only see the theme when there has been significant fleshing out of the characters, their motivations, and the plots they're driving. Brienne looks entirely different in the show, where she seems boss and somewhat reasonable, and she never gets bailed out by men (well except for that one time with Jaime and the bear). It's the opposite in the books though.

[baudib]

I have to admit at this point I can't even remember the books. I know there were stark (no pun intended) differences in the show this season but a lot of details about relationships escape me.

Thing I do recall is that the male POV chapters did seem more interesting, for instance the Jamie parts were great and when he was absent for huge stretches I started hating the books. Same for the show really.

I hated the Catelyn chapters and it's clear he didn't know where the fuck to go with Khaleesi.

[bikes]

. Pretty sure Brienne never even met the Hound in the books,.

THE GRAVEDIGGER ON THE QUIET ISLE YO.

YOU KNOW NOTHING WUFWUGY!


and olenna is not a small side character. this is like saying varys is a small side character. the only reason you think littlefinger is wrecking is because we have a sansa pov.

[bikes]

ALL ABOARD THE CLEGANE BOWL HYPE TRAIN

[JKDS]

No, mountain is dead. It aint happening.

[bikes]

NONE SHALL DERAIL THE CLEGANEBOWL HYPE TRAIN!

[JKDS]

Ok fine, its probably him in the armor. But Sandor just wants to chill

[wufwugy]

For the purposes of my claim, Varys also is a side character. I only see the dynamic when a bunch of words have gone into explaining and developing the character, so that almost entirely means when they're POV

If Olenna isn't a side character, then there are no side characters. She's, like, as sidey of a side character you could find. Others, like LF and Hound are similar, yet closer to the center. Things I've said about them are relevant only to what has happened in POV of those close to them. Whatever. This is getting played out

[baudib]

Wuf, if you want us to just drop this ok but, I feel like you've moved the goal posts.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that all of GRRM's women are idiots who need to be saved by men.

You didn't say all of GRRM's women who are clearly central characters with POV chapters.

There's just no way, in the Game of Thrones, where you win or you die, that anyone could justify calling Margaery or Olenna side characters. They are huge players in the political landscape of Westeros. We could probably include Melisandre and Dany in there too, but he kinda fumbled the ball with them.

If you want to say that he has some classically sexist portrayals of women and that his male characters are better developed, on the average smarter and that he writes their POVs better, then I'd probably agree with you.

[JKDS]

As bad as the Sansa chapters are generally, and as bad as Dany's have gotten, I like that they were in the story as they were. I like that one stark child is a wuss. I like that shes slowly catching up to everyone else too. I also like that Dany is having difficulties in deciding what to do, when all she is getting advice from are two knights and ppl that eat horse hearts. Given that Dany got all this pressure to be 'mother', I like that she succumbed to it (even though it was a bad decision, and left her sitting in merreen for 1000 pages).

In the end though, these characters are well set up for a drastic change in how they act. And im excited for some more female-lead ass-kicking.

[baudib]

I am well behind you guys, and this may seem too simplistic an idea to even entertain, or it's too obvious, but is there a way for the end game to not involve widescale massacre and toppling of all existing power struggles?

For example, it seems utterly impossible for a Baratheon (Lannister) line involving Cersei's children and Dany to co-exist. The Tyrells and Lannisters are a political marriage that can't last.

Basically, it's hard to see the Lannisters winning without wiping out several factions wholesale. Maybe the lolGreyjoys win some sort of greater autonomy, or a (Littlefinger)-Stark restoration in the North could happen (where does that leave the Boltons though?).

But with JKDS mentioning the flaws in some major characters, and with the Stannis faction doing the "protector of the Realm" bit and joining with Mance, there are clear implications that uneasy alliances and compromise will have to be made to face external threats (undead, Dany).

Another obvious alliance is some sort of Jon Snow-Dany joining. There's some possibility of a Dany reaching accord with a decimated, Cersei-less Lannister group, via Barristan and Jamie.

Really though, if you see these as the major players:
Targaryens
Lannisters
Tyrells
Starks
Baratheons
Wildlings
Littlefinger

It seems like most of them need to be wiped out. This doesn't account for Arya, who's not furthering Stark causes, or a few other pretenders (Boltons, Greyjoys).

[bikes]

The others are coming. And they are about to fuck shit up

[baudib]

ikr

[bikes]

if jon dany and tyrion all live to the end im'a be slightly perturbed.

also my theory that jon is the nights king died with stupid fkn hbo

[wufwugy]

Wuf, if you want us to just drop this ok but, I feel like you've moved the goal posts.



You didn't say all of GRRM's women who are clearly central characters with POV chapters.

There's just no way, in the Game of Thrones, where you win or you die, that anyone could justify calling Margaery or Olenna side characters. They are huge players in the political landscape of Westeros. We could probably include Melisandre and Dany in there too, but he kinda fumbled the ball with them.

If you want to say that he has some classically sexist portrayals of women and that his male characters are better developed, on the average smarter and that he writes their POVs better, then I'd probably agree with you.

They are the definition of side characters. The amount we understand Olenna is 100x less than the amount we understand Cersei.

Perhaps I should have worded it differently in the beginning by stating that the theme seems to arise only when GRRM has to use devices to explain his female characters, their plots, etc. But even that's confusing.

I doubt GRRM has ever sat around thinking "what to do with Olenna, what to do....", but he absolutely has thought "what to do with Brienne, what to do...". Brienne is a driver of the plot, GRRM has to create her mind and her motivations to move forward. Olenna is more of a foil, and we don't have to know much about her to see what's going on. My point is that when GRRM answers the question "where are we going with this", it curiously involves the central women being dummies and/or needing men to help them

[baudib]

being a "side character" or "foil" doesn't make Olenna a non-woman. yes you worded it poorly to start.

[baudib]

I also don't think Cersei is dumb or non-independent. I think most of her development is centered around her becoming free of associations with various men (Robert, Jamie, Tywin) . She's not the most skilled player on the board but she's not without chops.

I think Cersei's fatal flaw is her lack of humanity and her inability to gain allies that will be there if she ever falls into hard times.

One thing that is interesting about the female characters is that their weaknesses involve love choices, where men generally choose honor/duty. Honor/Duty seems to be a superior choice if you want to live in GoT, and then there are those who are conflicted, like Cersei.

[wufwugy]

That was hardly a poor wording choice since the most obvious thing in the world was that I wasn't talking about literally all. Nobody would suggest such an idiotic thing. Every other part of my posts on the subject were about central, big roles.

Forum posts aren't legal documents. Your comments to me make it seem like you just read my first sentence and didn't bother to understand all the others

[wufwugy]

I also don't think Cersei is dumb or non-independent. I think most of her development is centered around her becoming free of associations with various men (Robert, Jamie, Tywin) . She's not the most skilled player on the board but she's not without chops.

I think Cersei's fatal flaw is her lack of humanity and her inability to gain allies that will be there if she ever falls into hard times.

One thing that is interesting about the female characters is that their weaknesses involve love choices, where men generally choose honor/duty. Honor/Duty seems to be a superior choice if you want to live in GoT, and then there are those who are conflicted, like Cersei.

She's a fucking moron. You didn't even finish the chapters detailing this. The leading KL arc of the last two books was actualization of Tywin's claims that his daughter is a fucking moron

[baudib]

FFS wuf

There are no female equivalents of all the straight bosses, like Littlefinger, Tywin, Jaqen, Barristan, and many more. Maybe I'm not explaining it well.

how is Barristan a major character/boss and Olenna isn't?

you are fitting characterizations into your own theory

[wufwugy]

AFFC might actually be my favorite book because of all the Cersei chapters where she gloats about being the smartest person in the world. Meanwhile it's obvious to the reader that she's a fool, constructing her inevitable downfall

[baudib]

Barristan needs Dany far more than vice versa.

And Arya got more out of the Jaqen relationship than he did.

[wufwugy]

FFS wuf



how is Barristan a major character/boss and Olenna isn't?

you are fitting characterizations into your own theory

Well, Barristan is becoming a central character, getting chapters and all, but yes, you're correct. I remember forgetting that the "straight boss" applies to Olenna as well

But that's all fine and good since my thesis doesn't hinge on that

[wufwugy]

Barristan needs Dany far more than vice versa.

And Arya got more out of the Jaqen relationship than he did.

No to the former. Without any of her men, Dany is doomed. In fact, her doom hastened when she kicked her main man to the curb. Barristan would be just dandy without her. I'm sure we're going to find out in b6 how Barristan saved her shit while she was out playing with her dragon

And to the latter, you're agreeing with me. Arya went from man to man, being helped all along the way. Jaqen saved her, not Jaqess. Hound saved her, not Houndess. Kindly Man is a standard position of authority and knowing, not Kindly Woman. I'm not saying this to say it's a problem, a lot of it is reasonable. It's just a common theme.

[baudib]

Barristan is a knight looking for a ruler, a hero looking for a cause. I'm not sure where he is without one.

I'll concede Cersei point because I don't remember or didn't read those parts.

If you look at male-female relationships, Stannis needs Melissandre. Does Melissandre need Stannis? Arguably, but I think it's more accurate to say she's using him. This is, incidentally, illustrative of a very common theme in the real world that wars start out as political conflicts but become overrun by religious agendas.

As far as Arya, I think "need" is the wrong word. The men in Arya's life are devices to get her from point to point. At various points she needs them for instruction or survival but she's not tied to them. She's a central character and the dominant one in every relationship. This extends all the way to her family. She "needs" instruction, protection, a sword, a talisman, to get her to her next step. She's not running around the countryside going "OMG I need to find Jon Snow/Jaqen/The Hound" etc. and she's happy to leave them once their purpose is served.

[wufwugy]

Barristan is a knight looking for a ruler, a hero looking for a cause. I'm not sure where he is without one.

I'll concede Cersei point because I don't remember or didn't read those parts.

If you look at male-female relationships, Stannis needs Melissandre. Does Melissandre need Stannis? Arguably, but I think it's more accurate to say she's using him. This is, incidentally, illustrative of a very common theme in the real world that wars start out as political conflicts but become overrun by religious agendas.

As far as Arya, I think "need" is the wrong word. The men in Arya's life are devices to get her from point to point. At various points she needs them for instruction or survival but she's not tied to them. She's a central character and the dominant one in every relationship. This extends all the way to her family. She "needs" instruction, protection, a sword, a talisman, to get her to her next step. She's not running around the countryside going "OMG I need to find Jon Snow/Jaqen/The Hound" etc. and she's happy to leave them once their purpose is served.

Melisandre isn't playing Stannis. She believes he is Azor. My only point with her was that she is an example, not of a woman needing a man, but of a woman's problems being created by her own dumbness. Perhaps those will change in the future, but all we know now is that she has pretty irrational reasons for thinking Azor is Stannis. If instead of ignoring what the fires show her, she listened, she'd be backing the real Azor. Or something. Her arc isn't nearly complete, and the theme often isn't there while an arc is adolescent. At first I thought Mel was an exception and my thesis was wrong, but then we got Mel chapters and got to see that the most important thing about her hinges on her saying "that's totally not what i thought, but oh well i will continue thinking what i thought"


What you're describing about Arya is need. Her autonomy has actually been pretty small, and all along the way, men have been doing for her she needs in order to fulfill GRRM's ultimate destiny for her. Just because Arya doesn't realize this doesn't mean that whenever GRRM writes about his little unruly girl, the authority figure in her life isn't a man

[baudib]

I don't think Arya recognizes authority figures, I think there are countless examples of this. For examples, she's unmoved by Beric's resurrection and the power of the Lord of Light and the BwoB in general; she hides Needle for later use.


I think this is more like Arya is hopping from host to host rather than she needs to be rescued from the big, bad, scary world.

[wufwugy]

Barristan is a knight who wants a ruler. Dany needs Barristan to keep her from destroying herself. I think wants and needs are important distinctions here.

At this point, that's a little too extreme a statement to claim. Barristan certainly has picked up a ton of slack left by Dany being a dolt, but Jorah did even moreso. It's not a coincidence that every single thing with Dany went to hell in a handbasket after she kicked him out.

Maybe on a subconscious level, GRRM is more comfortable driving plots with women when they fit into some really subtle stereotypes (I know I certainly am, as is everybody). For example, contrast how Jon "died" with how Dany very nearly died. Jon didn't do anything stupid. He did the right thing and was betrayed for it. But Dany was as dumb as a bag of nails. Marrying Hizdahr was incredibly stupid and frankly I don't even believe it's something the character of Dany would actually do. I think GRRM had to force it in there

So on one hand we have a man who gets screwed because others screw him, and on the other we have a woman who screws herself. Maybe I wouldn't have figured this theme existed in the first place if the majority of AFFC wasn't about the women screwing themselves

[baudib]

it's definitely a theme

i think, again, a lot of this hinges on this love vs. duty thing, and women seem more disposed to choose love?

there are men who did this though, most notably Robb Stark, but also Jamie at the beginning of the story, Renly. Other men wrestle with the conflict (Jon Snow, Tyrion) before returning to duty.

[wufwugy]

I don't think Arya recognizes authority figures, I think there are countless examples of this. For examples, she's unmoved by Beric's resurrection and the power of the Lord of Light and the BwoB in general; she hides Needle for later use.


I think this is more like Arya is hopping from host to host rather than she needs to be rescued from the big, bad, scary world.

They're classical authority figures for Arya. Her listening or lack thereof doesn't make them not authority figures. Most interesting dynamics with an authority figure includes rejection of that figure anyways.

I wouldn't say that Arya needs to be "rescued from the big bad world". It's a little more subtle than that. She might do just fine on her own, but the point is that she isn't on her own and she is being rescued and taught over and over, and the figures that do that are male authority figures.

Even Sansa doesn't have any female authority figures. If GRRM was a woman, I strongly suspect Sansa would have figures and guides of the female persuasion. But how it is now, it's pretty much Littlefinger and she never had any other. Cersei/Olenna/Cately/some septa never guided Sansa. Only one man has so far. Compare this to the fact that Arya has gotten zero guidance from women and a ton from men

Maybe my point is the most obvious one there is: a male writer tends to understand male things

[baudib]

yeah for sure, like I thought the Amy parts in "Gone Girl" were better than the husband parts.


BTW I think Littlefinger ending up as a winner, not necessarily on the Iron Throne, but in a boss position, must happen for a satisfactory conclusion.

[wufwugy]

Yes part of me wants LF to sit upon the ashes

Or Ramsay to be Azor Ahai. That shit ain't happening though.

I'm not a fan of LF dying in the end. If things go bad for him, they need to be in a way that marginalizes him but doesn't kill him.

[JKDS]

Dany eventually figures it out though, and adverts her death though right? Without any male bitches to help her. And Cersei, for all her arrogance, was being heavily manipulated by Varys into making all those follies.

I mean, its curious that a lot of characters dont have moms or grannys to get advice from (on point to what you're saying), but then we have the son-mother relationships of Robb-Cat, Bran-Oldnan, Tommand-Cersei, and I start caring less about that. Theres important male characters getting played and being stupid just as much as there are females doing it too. (Dany's brother, in addition to ppl previously mentioned).

I mean, you can compare Starks to Lanisters, and you got Sansa = Tommand, and Arya = Joffrey. These children are mirror images of each other, in their need for dependence (Sansa pair) and independence (arya pair). Theyre similar in maturity levels, knowledge of how the world works, respect for authority, moldability, etc. The only real differences are age and gender. Sure, arya had Jaquen provide plot devices for her, and shes being trained to use a sword and be an assassin...but how else does she do these things? Does 8(?)yr old arya read a book on swordsmanship and suddenly gain +5 to fighting? Or does she find the only other known female swordsman (Brienne) and beg to be taught by her (even though she isnt great)? Its a fact that men are the fighters in this universe...and theres sexism in that, sure...but within that world there isnt much Arya can do to improve if she isnt being taught by a man.

Like, if Arya were taught by a bunch of children of the Forrest girls, would you see an issue? Because if not, then i cant see how being taught by men provides an issue when theyre really the only people that can do so.

[wufwugy]

Dany eventually figures it out though, and adverts her death though right? Without any male bitches to help her. And Cersei, for all her arrogance, was being heavily manipulated by Varys into making all those follies.

I mean, its curious that a lot of characters dont have moms or grannys to get advice from (on point to what you're saying), but then we have the son-mother relationships of Robb-Cat, Bran-Oldnan, Tommand-Cersei, and I start caring less about that. Theres important male characters getting played and being stupid just as much as there are females doing it too. (Dany's brother, in addition to ppl previously mentioned).

I mean, you can compare Starks to Lanisters, and you got Sansa = Tommand, and Arya = Joffrey. These children are mirror images of each other, in their need for dependence (Sansa pair) and independence (arya pair). Theyre similar in maturity levels, knowledge of how the world works, respect for authority, moldability, etc. The only real differences are age and gender. Sure, arya had Jaquen provide plot devices for her, and shes being trained to use a sword and be an assassin...but how else does she do these things? Does 8(?)yr old arya read a book on swordsmanship and suddenly gain +5 to fighting? Or does she find the only other known female swordsman (Brienne) and beg to be taught by her (even though she isnt great)? Its a fact that men are the fighters in this universe...and theres sexism in that, sure...but within that world there isnt much Arya can do to improve if she isnt being taught by a man.

Like, if Arya were taught by a bunch of children of the Forrest girls, would you see an issue? Because if not, then i cant see how being taught by men provides an issue when theyre really the only people that can do so.

Dany didn't figure it out. She just rode off with her dragon. Maybe she retrospectively put it together in her last ADWD chapter, I don't remember, but that wouldn't change anything since it's retro

I honestly don't remember any of the manipulation Varys did to Cersei, but of course that sort of thing is expected. The point, however, is that she wasn't ever forced to think the really dumb things she did. Chapter after chapter was her loving her intellect while she was doing something that the reader already knew or suspected was myopic.

Robb-Cat: okay, and she leads him astray. So the one time we have a female mentor, she fits perfectly into the mold of being a moron? Setting Jaime free was an epic level of unreasoned thought, and it was one of the two most important pieces of her son being murdered. Count me not surprised that Zombie Cat was just as thoughtless as always when she spoke to Brienne

Bran-Oldnan: I haven't finished AGOT, but at least as far as the show is concerned, she kinda just told some stuff to him. Their relationship was nothing like Arya and any of her mentors. Osha in the show would be a better example for Bran, as that dynamic does exist, but I recall it not existing in the books, at least not as much as in the show.

Tommen-Cersei: they talk? Their relationship is something we're told is a thing that probably exists more than something we're made to see.

I agree that none of those things you listed are solutions for Arya, but my point isn't really about that. I'm not saying "why isn't Jaqen a girl?", I'm saying "yet again, the man and woman are in stereotyped positions". Not any one or even two examples can make the case though. It's more of a milieu. There isn't a problem with any of Arya's relationships, but when I look at all the relationships in the books and their key dynamics, I see the pattern I originally mentioned

Curiously, Cat was the main female in the position to be that "strong, reasonable man" who solves problems. But she turned out also to be a total nitwit, fully aligning with the stereotype. She was so obsessed with her own emotions that she couldn't see the great foolishness of her actions. I feel like this is the kind of device a writer who doesn't have empathic understanding of women would use. That's not a knock on GRRM, I'm the same way, and he is doing a great job of writing women like regular people. I only mentioned it because I think it's ironic that he gets so much credit for writing women so well when it seems to me that people making those claims aren't seeing the same old male perspective in the writing that they do with others.

Or maybe I'm way off, and chicks think it's super great seeing all the central females make super irrational/emotional decisions and needing the reasoned, calm, stalwart men at their sides

I don't have a comment about Viserys since I'm not into the AGOT meat. Dude still a relatively small, unfleshed-out character though.


FWIW, a lot of this is good normal stuff. The more I try to argue my point, the more I will make iffy correlations and seem like I'm claiming there's some stark theme. If it even exists, it's subtle and unintentional.

[baudib]

GRRM is a fat troll who probably had to pay for sex most of his life. it's not surprising he doesn't have a good feel for women.

[bikes]

barristan would be abso fucked if he didnt have dany. maybe you missed the part where he told her that he has failed his duty and now must find a true king and die in their service.

[wufwugy]

That's what he wants, not what he needs. Now, if Dany was abandoning things and it was wrecking Barristan, then you could say he needs her. For all we know, without Dany he would just go "aw schucks" then live his life like any old man. But if Dany lost him, or more like if she lost the calm, reasoned, powerful men around her, she'd be dead

Of course all relationships are meant to provide mutual benefit, so you could find a way to say Barristan needs Dany, but she's not the one keeping him out of trouble, he's the one keeping her out of trouble or at least trying.

Make a list of all the responsible, good decision-making adults and I think you'll find none or one of them are major female characters but many are major male characters

[baudib]

I think we're at an impasse on this topic, although it's been interesting. Because we're thoroughly bogged down in semantics.

Barristan is not a major character, nor is he a decision maker.

Under the qualifications of adult, major character decision maker, I'm not sure who that would be.

Tywin Lannister was all of those things, but he was fatally flawed and made some horrible mistakes that led to his demise and also likely his family's.

I guess you could say Littlefinger. He hasn't made any serious blunders, but he is obviously taking a high variance line. That's a tangled web he is weaving.

Tyrion?

[bikes]

my list of good decision making adults includes

ser davos seaworth
maaaaaaaaaaaybeeeeee renly baratheon.
end.

everyone else in asoiaf is an idiot, sociopath or a psychopath.

[baudib]

Davos is a good one

[wufwugy]

Reading AGOT last night and I was reminded of how much I always loathed Catelyn. I don't want somebody else's kid, but you can bet your balls that if it was my responsibility, I wouldn't be cruel like she is with Jon. She's a disgusting person. Just selfish and thoughtless

I suspect the Red Wedding did no damage to me because I hoped Cat would die and hoped her doofus of a son would follow

[JKDS]

For book 6, i will be incredibly upset if Dany doesnt burninate all of Khal Jhaqo's group. Dany hated them for raping a girl, so I fully expect hellfire to come down.

I guess she can claim some of the army as her own, but the leaders need to be turned to ash.

[bikes]

the saddest moments of the entire series is when ygritte dies in jon's arms and she says how they should have never left the cave and she dies with jon wondering if it was his arrow that killed her.

[bikes]

fuck the show for massacring that moment with the boy archer bro nod.

[wufwugy]

I am going to be very upset if s5 doesn't include Jon lobbing off Janos' head and the whole Commander choosing. Both of those scenes are better for Jon's character than any other. But if I laid money on it I would bet that the show will do neither. It appears they've already given Jon the Commandership by default, and they would probably decide that they don't want to tempt compromising Jon's status as a pure hero to the audience by having him cut off Janos' head.

I'm already pissed Barristan didn't pwn Nero. That was one of the best scenes in the books due to how awesomely the old man abused Nero with just a staff. The show had better make up for it with a fight in Hizdarh's chamber. But IMO it should be against two of the pit fighters and Barristan should make swift work of them both. The books give Barristan flaws due to his age, but the show shouldn't. They need to make him as ultimate as they've told us he is

I hope I don't hate what they're planning with Jaime, but I'm sure they will. Some of my favorite stuff in the books was him dealing with Blackfish.

If Hotah doesn't control the room by slamming the butt of his staff against the floor, the show fails

If Arianne doesn't ooze sexy, the show fails

I'm expecting Brienne's story to completely change, and for the better. Hers was pretty weak in AFFC. The show already greatly improved the character by adding that goatscene of her killing those three guys in front of an impressed Jaime

I very much hope the show digs into the dramatic irony of Cersei's idiocy and makes no attempt to convince the audience that she's not destroying herself with each of her dumb decisions

A strength for the show could be bringing Tyrion deeply into the Dany story, where he enters her inner circle quickly and becomes trusted. The character is simply just very strong when he holds power and needs to outsmart people

I feel like they're gonna have to up the war-heaviness of Stannis vs Boltons, since it appears there's no Manderly. That shouldn't be a problem since it would be exciting to see Stannis and Davos get win after win. Freys need to fucking die, but I suspect the show has forgotten about that need.

Perhaps you'll disagree, but I want a complete overhaul of the Faceless Men/Arya thing. I am not enjoying that too much in the books, and I think it translates poorly to the show. They straight up need to bring Jaqen back and make it less religious/self-discovery oriented.

[baudib]

I don't hate that post. Bringing back Jaqen would be awesome but book readers will RAGE.

[JKDS]

I want nothing more than to see Tyrion helping dany and riding one of her dragons.

But Quaithe (spelling?) 's prophecies or whatever seem like thats unlikely to happen. Dany's been told to straight up shut down all these people coming to see her, so i dunno. Tyrion is smart enough to get inside those ranks...but hes also arrogant/proud enough to fuck it all up too.

[wufwugy]

I suspect the show will ignore so much of the prophecy

It's definitely finishing before the books, and I suspect BnW don't know the majority of where GRRM is going with it. They're probably going to have to make up totally new paths for characters like Tyrion

Honestly it looks like a terrible position for GRRM. I know I couldn't handle this well. The show moving ahead of the books might be a disaster for the books

[bikes]

Strong Belwas shouldn't have let HBO cut him obv.

[baudib]

why did they cut Nymeria from the show? Wouldn't have taken that much to add a few scenes.