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lawdude's guide to kill pots

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  1. #1

    Default lawdude's guide to kill pots

    INTRODUCTION

    Many of the local fixed limit hold 'em tables are played with a kill, and this is a common format all over the country. My impression is that many players don't seem to have the foggiest idea as to how this should change their play and how it shouldn't. This is an attempt to summarize my approach to kill tables.

    First, and I can't stress this enough, I don't recommend playing at kill tables if non-kill tables are available. Most of the recommendations about kill tables are going to involve nitting up from your standard play, and kill tables also increase variance a ton. Yes, you will be in theory making more money over time if you play kill tables correctly and your opponents make mistakes, but this plays out over a long period of time. In the short term, you won't notice when your correct play is netting you money (because so much of it comes from staying OUT of hands) and you WILL notice when you take a bad beat or have to throw a lot of chips in chasing in a kill pot.

    Further, if the kill tables you play at have a lot of kill pots, the variance may start affecting your bankroll management. If you don't feel you are rolled for 15-30, you probably aren't rolled for a 10-20 1/2 kill table where 30 percent of the pots are kill pots either. (This is less of a concern if the table is tight as sees few kill pots.) If you ARE rolled to handle the kills, you may well be rolled to move up and play a non-kill table at a higher limit.

    So avoid these tables if you can. But in some casinos you have little choice in the matter, and here's what to do when you end up at one:

    DIFFERENT KILL STRUCTURES

    Often times, the table will simply be described as "8/16 with a kill", but there are very different rules at different casinos about how the kill works, and some of these are extremely important.

    What all kill tables have in common is that when a player wins a pot, they receive a "leg up" button. If they win a second pot in a row, the button is flipped over and the next pot is a kill pot. The player with a kill button must post an additional blind, which is greater than the normal big blind and becomes the new small bet for the hand. For instance, the rule may be that the player in a 4/8 game who has the kill must post 6 chips, and the game then plays 6-12 for that hand. That is called "4/8 with a 1/2 kill".

    Note that if the killer is already a blind, he or she does not need to post his or her normal blind, but only needs to post the kill blind. So in our 4/8 with a 1/2 kill game, if the killer is in the big blind, he or she posts $6, and there is a small blind of $2 to the killer's right-- those are the only two blinds.

    1/2 kill and full kill: The two main structures in terms of bet sizing are 1/2 kill and full kill. In 1/2 kill, the killer's blind is 1 1/2 times the normal big blind, and the game runs for that hand with 1 1/2bb - 3bb betting limits. Thus, in 4/8 with a half kill (spread at Hustler), the kill blind is $6 and the hand plays at 6-12, as noted above.

    The other common structure is full kill, where the killer's blind is 2 normal big blinds and the game runs for that hand with 2bb - 4bb betting limits. Thus, in 8/16 with a full kill (spread at Hollywood Park), the kill blind is $16 and the hand plays at 16-32.

    Whether the game is full or half kill is extremely important for its effect on implied odds, and may also effect whether players playing with scared money want to enter kill pots. These issues will be discussed herein.

    Minimum pot requirement to trigger kill: In some casinos, it does not matter how small the second winning hand is, it can trigger a kill. You can even trigger a kill by stealing the blinds or sometimes even chopping the blinds with a leg up. (Usually the latter is restricted to when the big blind has the leg up, as the big blind is considered the "winner" of that hand.) San Manuel, for instance, plays 4/8 with a full kill this way.

    Other casinos have a minimum pot requirement to trigger the kill. Thus, at Hustler, the pot must contain 20 standard denomination chips ($20 in a 4/8 game, or $40 in an 8/16 game). Bicycle will not trigger a kill if the blinds are stolen or the pot is won with a single bet on the flop by the player with the leg up.

    This is extremely important, because in casinos without such a requirement, you have to be much more careful about getting into pots when you have a leg up, because you may end up having to give all your winnings or even more than all your winnings on the hand back to the other players at the table by posting a kill blind the next hand. This will be discussed herein as well.

    Killer gets to act last pre-flop: This rule is the one players seem to really obsess about, but it's actually the least important. In some casinos, the killer is "compensated" by getting to act last pre-flop no matter what position he is at the table. That seems like it should matter a lot, but it doesn't, because the kill's effect on the killer's implied odds is so much more important. The only real effects this has are (1) it gives the killer a more accurate picture of what his or her implied odds are going to the flop, because everyone has already acted, and (2) it allows the killer to make an equity estimate with hands such as suited connectors and perhaps put in a raise for value acting last pre-flop. But 99 percent of the time, it doesn't matter whether killers act last or in turn pre-flop.

    POST-FLOP KILL TABLE STRATEGIES

    Yes, you read right. We are going to cover post-flop first. Why? Because understanding how the kill affects hands post-flop is key to understanding what to do pre-flop.

    Post-flop, you are really only going to worry about the kill when you either have the leg up or are the killer. Yes, if you get heads up against a player with a leg up, in a small pot (but big enough to trigger a kill), and you are going to be on the button next hand when the pot is killed, the thought might cross your mind of increasing your folding range and letting the pot be killed. But I doubt that there are very many situations (or even perhaps any) where you are really getting odds to do this.

    So we will focus on when you have the leg up or the kill. And the major consideration is that you must subtract, from your pot and implied odds calculations, the kill blind that you are going to be required to post in the next hand from the total amount you stand to win. So, at a half-kill table, you have to subtract 1 1/2 small bets from the pot when you have a leg up. At a full-kill table, you have to subtract 2 small bets. This will have the effect of forcing you to nit up and fold some hands that would have been marginal calls otherwise, and it will push some more obvious calls into the marginal category. (Note that because the kill does not cumulate with the blinds, you need to adjust your adjustment when you will be in the big or small blind in the next hand. At a half-kill table, you subtract 1/2 small bet when you are under the gun and 1 small bet when you are in the big blind with the leg up. At a full-kill table, you subtract 1 small bet when you are under the gun and 1 1/2 small bets in the big blind with the leg up.)

    When you have the kill, the principle is the same but the calculation is a bit different. The kill blind is the equivalent of 1 small bet if the next hand is killed. Thus, subtract 1 small bet from your pot calculation if you are the killer. (Again, in the blinds, you have to take into effect the non-cumulative nature of the kill. In a 1/2 kill game, subtract 1/3 of a small bet when under the gun and 2/3 of a small bet when in the big blind. In a full kill game, subtract 1/2 of a small bet when under the gun and 3/4 of a small bet in the big blind.)

    Note, by the way, that the effect is most pronounced when you have the leg up-- NOT the kill, where the bets are larger anyway-- and when you are generally in good position (i.e., not under the gun or in the big blind). This is going to be extremely counterintuitive for most players-- you can actually afford to be a little less nitty if you actually win the second pot and post the kill blind, or if you are in two of the worst positions at the table.

    Do you feel a quease in your stomach from the prospect that you are going to have to fold some decent draws at a kill table? Well guess what, you are, especially if you play full kill. One of the two biggest mistakes that players make at kill tables is following the same strategy to chase pots when they have a leg up. (We'll discuss the second one when we get to pre-flop.)

    So, to summarize, post-flop, we are going to subtract from the pot the kill blind that we will have to post if we win the hand. This will have the effect of forcing us to fold more drawing hands, especially the weaker draws such as gutshots and small pairs.

    PRE-FLOP WHEN WE HAVE THE LEG UP OR THE KILL

    Now, knowing what we know post-flop, the effects of the kill are going to be fairly obvious pre-flop. Essentially, when we have a leg up or a kill, our implied odds are going to be cut. But, they will be cut a fixed amount (up to 2 small bets). This is a huge amount if the pot is going to be small, but it really isn't that big a deal if the pot is going to be large. So, your pre-flop strategy with a leg up should be directed towards avoiding playing hands that are likely to take down small or mid-size pots unless our equity advantage is large enough to outweigh the cost of the kill blind. This effect is going to be most pronounced in full kill games with no minimum pot size for the kill. It will be less pronounced in a half kill game with a minimum. But it will always be there, and it means you need to think about what sorts of hands that you would normally play that you are going to have to fold.

    Simply put, if you can get them into a large, multiway pot, suited connectors are fine. And the biggest monster pocket pairs (I'd say jacks or higher) are fine because they carry so much equity that you probably don't lose money even if they are going to cost you a kill blind. (However, there is an exception to this I will discuss at the end of this post.)

    But any hand that you are relying on fold equity rather than implied odds to win with is a no-no. Ace-x offsuit, for instance, is unplayable. Same with strong offsuit kings and queens. I'm OK with playing suited aces and broadways-- yes, you will sometimes win raise-and-take-its but you also get implied odds on your flush (and sometimes straight) draws. You can limp smaller pocket pairs for set value, but if you were planning on raising to get them heads up, that's a bad deal. If you can't profitably limp or cold-call with them, you need to fold them.

    I know what you are thinking. "This kill thing is gonna turn me into a nit!" Yep. Being a nit is often proper strategy at kill tables. If you don't like it, remember my first piece of advice-- don't play kill tables.

    Now, what about when we have the kill? Well, the effect on implied odds is less pronounced (because the bet sizes are bigger) but it is still there. If you get to see the flop for free, of course, that's dandy. But you need to be cautious about calling raises even if you think that the raiser is just pushing you around. And this gets me to the second big mistake I see players make: don't defend your kill blind like it's a big blind. You see, if you win a pot defending your big blind, you post the small blind next hand, just like you do when you lose. But if you win a pot defending your kill blind, you post another kill blind. And another, and another. You keep posting them until you lose.

    What does this do to your odds? Well, simply put, in a heads-up pot, you are getting 3 to 1 on your call of a raise from the big blind. That's why you can defend with a lot of marginal hands. Theoretically, if you have 25 percent equity, you are making money on the call. And unless the other player has you dominated or has a big pocket pair, you probably have 25 percent equity with almost anything. (In practice, you are out of position and can't capture all that equity, which is why you can't have too wide a defense range. But that's the basic idea.)

    Well, when you defend your kill blind, you aren't getting 3 to 1. Heads-up, you are getting 2 to 1, because if you win, you have to post another kill blind. Another way of thinking about this is that the kill blind, to the killer, is additional rake. The killer can never get it back, even if he or she wins the pot. We all talk about what excessive rake does to your odds in a game. Well, if you are being told that you have to pay 1 additional small bet of rake in addition to the rake that the casino charges from the pot, you can see how this would cause you (even if you even decided to play at the casino) to play a much narrower range of hands. That's essentially what a kill defender is facing.

    Now, having said this, there are situations when you should defend your kill blind. If you have a monster pair, or can get a monster unpaired hand like AK or AQ heads-up, it's perfectly fine to defend. And you can in theory defend with any hand that gives you 33 percent equity against the raiser's range if you are in position. Just understand that 33 percent is not 25 percent, and you are going to need to be folding quite a few hands in raised kill pots when you are the killer, especially when you are out of position. Once again, at kill tables, tight is, unfortunately, right.

    Of course, most kill pots don't go heads up. In multi-way pots, you just have to follow the same guidelines that you would when you have a leg up. Suited connectors are worth calling a raise, suited aces and broadways are good, smaller pocket pairs are fine, and monster pocket pairs should be raised. Just remember you need to narrow your range to the type of hands that will make you a big pot or give you a big equity edge that outweighs the cost of the next kill pot. Subtract the cost of the kill blind when thinking about whether you have odds to call the raise. You should thus have a slightly narrower calling range even in multi-way pots than you would calling a raised pot in the big blind.

    PRE-FLOP WHEN SOMEONE ELSE HAS THE KILL

    When someone else has the kill, things get interesting. You need to try and read your table, because one of several things might happen. Sometimes, kill pots cause players to nit up, especially if they have short stacks or are playing with scared money. Other times, kill pots generate action, as gamblers seek them out and start putting in raises. And some other times, nothing of note happens in a kill pot-- players play exactly the same, or nearly the same, as they would if it were a regular pot.

    So let's go through the three scenarios:

    1. Nitty kill tables. In nitty kill tables, you should focus on whether you have good position relative to the killer and absolute to the board and a good enough hand to isolate the killer. If you think you can get people to fold, you can make some pretty brazen raises. Indeed, this is one of the only situations when the correct play at a kill table isn't to be more nitty. So, watch how players play kill pots, and look at stack sizes. You can sometimes get away with things like raising Q8 offsuit 3rd to act. Basically, these tables play like classic blind battles, and you can use a very similar strategy to what you use playing blind-vs.-blind in reasonably tough games.

    2. Kill tables where the action doesn't change. If everyone seems to go about their business in kill pots, raising, folding, and calling with the same types of hands, you should go about yours. In such a situation, the hands are going to play out basically the same way, with the only change being perhaps an additional player in the pot with any two cards (the killer). Just play your game and it should be +EV here.

    3. Kill tables where the kill generates action. Some players love to gamble. They like to play in kill pots. You will spot them easily. Every time the kill is on, they will raise. Sometimes they will 3-bet. They will suddenly shift gears and play more aggressive than they normally do. Kill pots will be astronomical.

    In this situation, expect multi-way pots and big implied odds. This means that you should avoid hands that play poorly in multi-way pots (Ace-9? Into the muck!) and press with hands that play well in them. You can go ahead and raise your suited connectors or small pocket pairs here. Also, you can feel free to cold-call raises here, as usually you'll get several more players into the pot pre-flop.

    Just expect a lot of variance, a lot of chasing, and a lot of suckouts.

    FINALLY, A NOTE ABOUT KILL STRUCTURES AND UNOPENED POTS IN LATE POSITION

    I said at the start that kill structures matter. Well, they never matter more than when the betting is folded around to you and you have the leg up and a decent, raising hand. The problem is that in the worst of these structures, full kill with no minimum pot requirement, you can actually end up winning the pot and losing money!

    For instance, at San Manuel, there is a 4/8 full kill with no minimum pot requirement. Let's say you are in the cut-off with a leg up and with Ace-Queen suited and the betting folds to you. You raise, as every poker book in the world would tell you to do. The button and the blinds fold. You win $10 for your $4, minus the $1 drop, for a profit of $5. And now you have to post... an $8 kill blind! You just lost $3 with Ace-Queen in position!

    Now, at Hustler's 8/16 1/2 kill with a $40 minimum, you'd be OK. You raise, the button and blinds fold. The pot is $28, minus a $2 drop, total of $26. You are well under the minimum and don't have to post a kill blind. Even if the hand got to the flop and you ended up winning a $40 pot, the kill blind is still going to be 1 1/2 times the big blind, not 2 times. See why structures matter?

    So what do you have to do? Well, in full kill games with no minimum pot requirements, you have to basically fold ANY TWO CARDS in late position in an unopened pot with the leg up unless you are convinced you can get the blinds to come along. Even pocket aces! In 1/2 kill games with no minimum pot requirements, you should fold almost anything as well. And when you are the killer, you should check and hope to win the pot after it has been built post-flop. This was the exception to the rule that monster hands were generally immune to kill-induced nittiness. Sometimes, the correct play at a kill table is to fold pocket aces in position. Amazing, isn't it?

    And even in games with a minimum pot requirement, you should be really careful about opening pots when you have the leg up. Because a lot of times those hands will get to the flop and fold then or on the turn, and you will end up just over the minimum and will have to give a lot of your winnings right back in the next hand. This basically means no blind stealing with the leg up. (By the way, for the same reason, it means no blind stealing with the kill.) Isn't it wonderful? Again, one more reason not to play kill games.

    This also has an effect on the issue of chopping the blinds. In general, the correct play is to never chop your kill blind, because you'll just have to post it again. Further, at casinos with no minimum pot requirement, you should not chop in the big blind with a leg up either. You need to tell your neighbors about these things in advance, as generally it's considered really bad etiquette to wait for a hand and then say that you don't chop in this situation.

    One last thing. I mentioned bankroll up above. I can't stress how important it is that you buy in for enough chips to play in a big kill pot. I know it looks ridiculous sometimes, but you need to make sure you have 12 big bets' worth of chips at the kill limits. You'll be really sorry if you hit your set-over-set hand in a kill pot and you didn't have enough chips to get a full load of bets in.

    I hope this helps you all in playing at kill tables. But I really hope that you guys realize how kill tables are less fun (because they force a good player to nit up) and lead to more variance. Maybe you folks can push your local casino managers to get rid of them. That would be the most +EV play of them all.
    Last edited by LawDude; 03-29-2010 at 12:41 AM.
  2. #2
    ChezJ's Avatar
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    holy crap what a magnum opus! this answers a lot of questions i have always had about kill table strategy adjustments. brilliant.

    this should be converted into a permanent article for the strategy section of the site.

    ChezJ
  3. #3
    interesting read.

    What about limping hands (at least KK/AA) when you have the leg up?
  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by drmcboy View Post
    interesting read.

    What about limping hands (at least KK/AA) when you have the leg up?
    It's often a bad idea. At San Manuel, let's say you open-limp your aces on the button, and the small blind calls and the big blind checks. That's $12 in the pot. Rake out the $1, and you have $11. If you take that pot down with a single flop bet, you will have won $7, and after your kill blind is posted you lose money ($1). Indeed, this is a really bad reverse implied odds spot, because when these nitty players do go ahead and put money into the pot post-flop they are going to have a range that includes a lot of hands that are ahead of or close in equity to your aces. So you are going to lose money on pots when you bet and take it down and you may also be losing money on pots that get built.

    Now, that said, if you are confident that you can build your pot (for instance, if you think that the SB and/or BB is likely to interpret your action as a blind steal and defend), it may be fine to play your monster pair, but in that instance, I'd rather raise than limp because at least if the raise is called, I'm likely to be able to build a big enough pot to cover the cost of the kill blind.

    And if I were pretty sure that one of the blinds will raise my open-limp, I'd open limp and go for the limp-re-raise.

    But the reality is that at lower limit tables (where kill rules are more common), you aren't going to find a lot of those situations. And without the specific read that tells me that I'm gonna be able to cover the kill blind, I think it's better not to take the risk.

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