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Betting Sizing in MTT vs Cash

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  1. #1

    Default Betting Sizing in MTT vs Cash

    I played online poker back in the mid 2000s when it was still in the golden age of online poker. I however played recreationally back then. I remembered whether it was cash or mtt... bet sizing was always on the bigger side. Such as pot size bets were considered normal. I do know back then players were very bad even the best players compared to now.



    However, it seems like the last few years, the bet sizing in mtt and sng has been much smaller than before. I recalled how playing sng or mtt... at 50/100 level with 2k stacks, raising to 3x or 300 is considered standard and normal. Now it would be min raise or 2.1x or 2.2x. However postflop, it seems like mtt players rarely bet big on the flop anymore. I would watch twitch on some players and their preset bet sizing amts on the flop would be 38%, 42%, 45% and 60%. First off, how long has this lasted for? I know right before BF, when i played sngs... most bet sizing was not like this at least for my sngs. However even now, i rarely see players cbet more than 60 percent of the pot. Everything seems to be 40-50% of the pot. Many times you see 33-36% bet size on the flop or turn. Back then a good bet size on the flop was between 1/2 to 2/3rd the pot. However, is it completely wrong for this to be done now? Thing is if theres a flush draw on the flop, even betting 1/2 the pot is pretty small though.



    I don't play cash game but are cash game bet sizing still similar to back many years ago? I mean you rarely see bets smaller than 1/2 the pot. You would see lot of 3/4 and pot size bet and that is standard. I do know that bet sizing in mtt is smaller than cash b/c well stacks are much smaller in mtt. However... anyone notice that the bet sizing is still pretty small in mtt where players have 100bb +? I mean if you have a big hand... im not sure why you are betting 38% of the pot on the flop. Im curious but what are everyones preset flop size betting like on stars? They give you stars hotkey preset betting shortcuts.


    For me, i would do 35%, 1/2 pot, 2/3rd pot, 3/4 pot on stars hotkey bets. However, i rarely if ever see anyone pot size bet anymore unless its the river where they are betting a monster or betting a bluff. Im curious how much bet sizes does everyone have? Such as you either bet 1/2 pot, 2/3 pot, 35%, 38% pot etc. I like to know whats the most popular ones and probably the best ideal bet size options.


    Also curious about cash as well if anyone have opinion on this.


    Thanks.
  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by george01 View Post
    I played online poker back in the mid 2000s when it was still in the golden age of online poker. I however played recreationally back then. I remembered whether it was cash or mtt... bet sizing was always on the bigger side. Such as pot size bets were considered normal. I do know back then players were very bad even the best players compared to now.

    However, it seems like the last few years, the bet sizing in mtt and sng has been much smaller than before. I recalled how playing sng or mtt... at 50/100 level with 2k stacks, raising to 3x or 300 is considered standard and normal. Now it would be min raise or 2.1x or 2.2x. However postflop, it seems like mtt players rarely bet big on the flop anymore. I would watch twitch on some players and their preset bet sizing amts on the flop would be 38%, 42%, 45% and 60%. First off, how long has this lasted for? I know right before BF, when i played sngs... most bet sizing was not like this at least for my sngs. However even now, i rarely see players cbet more than 60 percent of the pot. Everything seems to be 40-50% of the pot. Many times you see 33-36% bet size on the flop or turn. Back then a good bet size on the flop was between 1/2 to 2/3rd the pot. However, is it completely wrong for this to be done now? Thing is if theres a flush draw on the flop, even betting 1/2 the pot is pretty small though.

    I don't play cash game but are cash game bet sizing still similar to back many years ago? I mean you rarely see bets smaller than 1/2 the pot. You would see lot of 3/4 and pot size bet and that is standard. I do know that bet sizing in mtt is smaller than cash b/c well stacks are much smaller in mtt. However... anyone notice that the bet sizing is still pretty small in mtt where players have 100bb +? I mean if you have a big hand... im not sure why you are betting 38% of the pot on the flop. Im curious but what are everyones preset flop size betting like on stars? They give you stars hotkey preset betting shortcuts.

    For me, i would do 35%, 1/2 pot, 2/3rd pot, 3/4 pot on stars hotkey bets. However, i rarely if ever see anyone pot size bet anymore unless its the river where they are betting a monster or betting a bluff. Im curious how much bet sizes does everyone have? Such as you either bet 1/2 pot, 2/3 pot, 35%, 38% pot etc. I like to know whats the most popular ones and probably the best ideal bet size options.

    Also curious about cash as well if anyone have opinion on this.

    Thanks.
    I'll start by saying that even some well respected regulars bet size quite poorly. Yes, even some people you watch on Twitch.

    Like you said in your post, bet sizing is largely dictated on effective stack sizes. Obviously board texture is very important too, but it all starts with stacks. For the most part, MTT players don't know how to size properly once they get deeper. Like I said, many regs size extremely poorly. You mentioned that you used to 3x preflop in tournaments? It's certainly correct to do so when you are quite deep. But for some reason some regs don't do it.

    That being said, the game has changed. It is often correct to raise less than 3x and minimum preflop too. It can also be good to limp preflop. It all depends.

    Many regs also size terribly post flop. When stacks get deeper, sizing becomes more difficult for a lot of tournament players because they're not always used to deeper stacks.

    But yeah, the standard has become <1/2 psb bets on the flop. In some situations, it's a good bet size. In others, it isn't. It all depends. But I agree with you that sometimes people are betting too small in general

    Quote Originally Posted by george01 View Post
    Thing is if theres a flush draw on the flop, even betting 1/2 the pot is pretty small though.
    This isn't really correct. If you want to elaborate on why you think this is the case, I can try to explain.

    I don't play cash so I can't comment there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/


    Watch me stream $200 hyper HU and $100 Spins on Twitch!
  3. #3
    Nice reply.
    When your hand is good enough should you be bet-sizing on each street enough to have the opponent(s) all-in on the river?
  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by donkbee View Post
    That being said, the game has changed. It is often correct to raise less than 3x and minimum preflop too.
    It sure has. It is interesting comparing the bet sizes of the final table for the 2014 wsop to some final tables from the past.
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by okeedokalee View Post
    Nice reply.
    When your hand is good enough should you be bet-sizing on each street enough to have the opponent(s) all-in on the river?
    When stacks are short enough, then yes it is often correct to size your bets so that you can get it in by the river. Not only when you have a hand but also when you don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/


    Watch me stream $200 hyper HU and $100 Spins on Twitch!
  6. #6
    Thanks for the confirmation.With no hand does this mean that keeping the pot small is wrong...?I'm reluctant to build the pot with no hand.
  7. #7
    Generally speaking, you should be trying to balance your bet sizing. If you only bet big when you have a hand and small when you don't, your opponents might catch on and then you'll never get paid when you have it or win pots when you don't.

    When I size my bets so that I can be all-in on the river and I don't have a hand, often I have equity so that if I get lucky and hit my outs, I can still be all-in on the river with the relative nuts if I hit. And FWIW, just because you're sizing so that you can be all-in on the river, doesn't mean that you HAVE to be all-in on the river.

    Quote Originally Posted by okeedokalee View Post
    Thanks for the confirmation
    You're very welcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/


    Watch me stream $200 hyper HU and $100 Spins on Twitch!
  8. #8
    I believe the small raise (less than 2.5x) and the small bet on the flop come with the advent of small-ball strategy, where players try to accumulate a lot of small-sized pots and try to avoid tough decisions on big-pot. This strategy works quite well against tight-aggressive players who fold a lot preflop, even when facing mini-raise, or easily give up marginal hands on the flop against aggression.

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