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When to c/r river in low stakes games strategy questions

  
 
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 02-15-2007, 05:33 AM     Post subject: When to c/r river in low stakes games strategy questions #1 (permalink)  
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 I rarely c/r rivers in low stakes games, I barely if ever do it as a bluff, but my quesiton is about when u have the nuts. When do you c/r rivers? Here are factors that make me want to.
1. Opp is aggressive and is likely to have a draw.
2. scare card came and opp is unlikely to call any bets, and any hands he would call hes betting anyway
3. opp is so crazy that hes probably betting if checked too.
Any other factors? And how strong do these ones have to be?
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Genitruc
Old 02-15-2007, 05:51 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 These are all pretty good.

If you have a read that villain is super aggro, making a small fishy-looking "blocking bet" can get some ppl to raise/push. If you think they have a missed draw it can be more profitable than C/Raising.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Renton
Old 02-15-2007, 07:12 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 i'll be captain obvious

When you have the best hand and put your opponent on a hand that he will bet/call if checked to but will only call a bet if bet into.

your welcome
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Lukie
Old 02-15-2007, 08:52 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
i'll be captain obvious

When you have the best hand and put your opponent on a hand that he will bet/call if checked to but will only call a bet if bet into.

your welcome
this is extremely helpful

thanks for you're awesome contribution
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elipsesjeff
Old 02-15-2007, 09:44 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
i'll be captain obvious

When you have the best hand and put your opponent on a hand that he will bet/call if checked to but will only call a bet if bet into.

your welcome
This is all you need to know. Satisfactory answer for me and I prlly couldn't say it better.


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jackvance
Old 02-15-2007, 12:25 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 I was thinking yesterday I should do it a lot more often.. if they have a hand strong enough to bet on the river, they are calling a c/r 9 times out of 10 anyway at lower stakes. Either that or it's a bluff and they would have folded to a bet (so you already got the extra value). It just seems like whenever I c/r as a bluff it gets called 100% so I really should be doing it more often with the nuts..
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 02-15-2007, 01:38 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 Also, you can use this tactic on good players, who try to get thin river value.
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gabe
Old 02-15-2007, 01:59 PM #8 (permalink)  
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start trying to check raise more and you will get alot better feel for it.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 02-15-2007, 02:09 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 Do you ever c/r a river where you put opp on a hand range where almost nothing is calling a bet but opp is relatively passive/not aggro?
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gabe
Old 02-15-2007, 02:20 PM #10 (permalink)  
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not really, that wouldnt make much sense
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 02-15-2007, 05:17 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Do you ever c/r a river where you put opp on a hand range where almost nothing is calling a bet but opp is relatively passive/not aggro?
LOL, then he'll check behind... maybe i'm not quite understanding what you are saying.
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bigspenda73
Old 02-15-2007, 06:34 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massimo
Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Do you ever c/r a river where you put opp on a hand range where almost nothing is calling a bet but opp is relatively passive/not aggro?
LOL, then he'll check behind... maybe i'm not quite understanding what you are saying.

Well this is your only possible play for extraction if he will never call a bet. Even a passive villian might try to take a pot down once in a while. However, assuming they are never calling the river 100% of the time takes a helluva read.
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iceit
Old 02-15-2007, 06:35 PM #13 (permalink)  

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I don't know but when I looked over my stats, the most profitable hands are the made hands that I bet on the river. I also found that in the small stake games if you check a river, it will most likely be checked down, especially if you c/c the flop and turn which puts a doubt in their heads about their TP hand. Now if you raised your opponent on either the flop or turn, the river is definatly checked down on the river.
So basically I think that you should just bet the hand that you have with a good intelligent bet and there is so many bad players in those stakes that you will get called with lesser hands. Slow playing at low stakes is suicide.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 02-15-2007, 07:04 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 I'm talking about 100nl and 200nl btw (You can include 50nl to)
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bigspenda73
Old 02-15-2007, 09:17 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 Well I have a hand history from $10nl but I didn't realize your low stakes games are NL100 and NL200.

Anyways, is this a good spot?

Villain is 35/7/4

Ultimate Bet
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05./$0.10.
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $10.45
CO: $1.15
Button: $15.31
Hero: $14.19
BB: $5

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with 3 4
UTG calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB checks.

Flop: 2 7 5 ($0.5, 5 players)
Hero bets $0.5, 3 folds, Button calls.

Turn: T ($1.5, 2 players)
Hero bets $1, Button calls.

River: 6 ($3.5, 2 players)
Hero checks...
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Renton
Old 02-15-2007, 09:27 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
i'll be captain obvious

When you have the best hand and put your opponent on a hand that he will bet/call if checked to but will only call a bet if bet into.

your welcome
this is extremely helpful

you're awesome
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Galapogos
Old 02-15-2007, 09:43 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
i'll be captain obvious

When you have the best hand and put your opponent on a hand that he will bet/call if checked to but will only call a bet if bet into.

your welcome
this is extremely helpful

thanks for you're awesome contribution
Irony anyone?

I like the way Renton put it BTW. And your reasons are the same I use to make this play Iowa.


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I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
 
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Warpe
Old 02-16-2007, 03:34 PM #18 (permalink)  
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 Probably shoulda shoved here, but w/e...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

CO ($20.05)
Button ($41.14)
SB ($19.64)
Hero ($49.30)
UTG ($50.90)
MP ($38.70)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7, A. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, MP raises to $2, 3 folds, Hero calls $1.50, UTG folds.

Flop: ($4.75) A, 6, 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $3, MP calls $3.

Turn: ($10.75) K (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $3, Hero calls $3.

River: ($16.75) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $8, Hero raises to $24, MP calls $16.

Final Pot: $64.75

Results in white below:
Hero has 7s As (flush, ace high).
MP has 9s 8s (flush, nine high).
Outcome: Hero wins $64.75.



 
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 02-16-2007, 04:17 PM #19 (permalink)  
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 i absolutely hate how that hand is played...
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bigspenda73
Old 02-16-2007, 04:45 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 Does the c/r need to be a sexy?

Meaning, do you need to have provided the last aggressive action on the turn for a c/r make sense?
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 02-16-2007, 04:45 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massimo
i absolutely hate how that hand is played...
Why not tell him why instead of just useless flaming?

I think it's hard to figure out a line for that hand. Why did u lead out the flop?
What made you think he was going to be the river?
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Genitruc
Old 02-16-2007, 05:05 PM #22 (permalink)  
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 warpe played his hand great except for not pushing

leading is good esp when u do it w 2pr/set

turn is standard
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Renton
Old 02-16-2007, 05:08 PM #23 (permalink)  
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 i think i like betting the river in warpeys hand
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Warpe
Old 02-16-2007, 05:50 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Why did u lead out the flop?
I like to bet my draws to build a pot, take control and get a feel for how strong he is, and I can take the pot right there. I put him on something like AT/AJ-ish or a draw when he just called. AK/AQ raises me here, which I call and then c/c or c/f turn, depending.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
What made you think he was going to bet the river?
He bet the turn, albeit weakly. By just calling I appear like I'm on the draw or looking for a cheap showdown (which I am), but when the draw completes checking the river makes me look afraid of it. He will very often bluff the river b/c I look so weak.



 
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Renton
Old 02-16-2007, 06:16 PM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
He will very often bluff the river b/c I look so weak.
what with?

Usually he has a top pairish hand and checks back.
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zook
Old 02-16-2007, 06:23 PM #26 (permalink)  
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I agree with Renton. When obvious draws complete I like to bet them (with and without the goods). I think he checks behind here with most non-flush hands, but might call a bet with some of them.
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Warpe
Old 02-16-2007, 06:26 PM #27 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
He will very often bluff the river b/c I look so weak.
what with?

Usually he has a top pairish hand and checks back.
If he's bluffing, he doesn't need a hand. To me, my line looks like a weak ace, maybe a lower overpair that I can be blown off.



 
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Renton
Old 02-16-2007, 06:30 PM #28 (permalink)  
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 true, but people just aren't dumb enough to bluff boards like this
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Renton
Old 02-16-2007, 06:46 PM #29 (permalink)  
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 im not shitting on your hand wapre, its just an interesting hand to discuss.

I feel that a bet is more +EV than a check (obviously since u have the nuts both plays are +EV) for reasons:

Lets say

he has a huge hand (like he had) 10% of the time, and that he bets/calls when checked to or raises if bet into.

he has a top pair/two pairish type hand 50% of the time and calls up to a 3/4 pot bet but checks if checked to.

the remaining 40% he has nothing or second pair or some crap and knows it can't be good at this point, and will bluff it 100% of the time when checked to (hmm unlikely, but this is hypothetical) with a 13 dollar bet but obviously folds to a raise.

So there are two scenarios, one in which u bet 3/4 of the pot and shove to any raise, and on where u check and shove to any bet.

The ev of a 13 dollar bet is (we'll ignore the current pot since u are always winning that)

(13*.50)+(33.70*.10)= 10.87 dollars

The ev of a check is:

(13*.40)+(33.70*.10)= 8.57 dollars AND THIS IS ASSUMING THAT HE ALWAYS BLUFFS (obv never true).
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Miffed22001
Old 02-16-2007, 08:26 PM #30 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
i think i like betting the river in warpeys hand

so fucking obvious.
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Warpe
Old 02-16-2007, 08:30 PM #31 (permalink)  
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 than you for your valuable input



 
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bigspenda73
Old 02-16-2007, 08:31 PM #32 (permalink)  
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 I'd like a comment on my hand up earlier in the post. Is the board not strong enough for open to hold a good second best hand he can bet with?
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jackvance
Old 02-16-2007, 08:40 PM #33 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I'd like a comment on my hand up earlier in the post. Is the board not strong enough for open to hold a good second best hand he can bet with?
10NL is just too passive for this imo..
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sauce123
Old 02-18-2007, 07:11 AM #34 (permalink)  
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C/R bluff are very rarely a good tactic at 100-200nl Ive found. Im like one for 6 in ones ive tried and the only time they are effective is when villain telegraphs a weak one pair hand mini vbet on riv. AND MAKE IT BIG, cause ppl have to put u on a set/flush/straight and not be seduced by pot odds, so obviously this leaves few opportunities.

For value only against the most aggro of opponents, specially if they are prone to bet missed draws on river, however this would be a long discussion and im tired but essentially a shove overbet on river is almost always better than a C/R (this is also in sklanskys book) and especially at these stakes as ppl tend to put you on a bluff... this actually is in line with what I said above.


In conclusion I love bluff raising river, but almost never checkraising river as a bluff.

Against the right opponents (and as a balancing play) check raising riv for value can be good, but many times overbets are better even OOP.

I could show lots of hands to show this but im tired

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