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L_Clan_Sup3rMaN
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11-20-2008, 02:05 AM
Post subject: What's your fold to 3bet %?
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 813
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Just curious what percentage ppl are folding to 3bets.
since moving to 200NL, i see the huge difference in game dynamics.
I swear, every time their is a PFR, they will flip a coin, heads they will 3bet to 26, tails they will 3bet to 22, if somehow lands in corner of the coin and its neither heads nor tails, thennnnnnnnn they will either fold or just call. my 4bet range shot up close to 4% now over 10k hands ish.
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,175
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could you post some hands with short writeups on each? would be awesome.
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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my fold to 3 bet is 81% over 200nl and 400nl.
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,814
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69% but my 4 bet is 4.5%. I am trying to get my fold % up to 75% without effecting my 4bet.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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My fold to 3-bet is ridiculously low. Its a real leak of mine.
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Just playing to improve.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,147
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Why are you guys folding to threebets really little? Your throwing away money.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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43% over last two months.
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Just playing to improve.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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50%, which is probably a tad too low. I 4bet 15%. What can I say, I'm lagtarded.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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buncha leaks ITT
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,599
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I fold to 3bets 65% ..
I 4bet 13.2%
I need to lower both of these numbers!
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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lol im a nit compared to everyone here.
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,234
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Fold to 3bet: 65%
4bet: 12.2%
so close griff
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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77%, but I play micros.
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OhBollocks
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dublin
Posts: 240
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Mine is crazy low @ 56%
Just spotted a big leak, cheers OP
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ISF
Nothing actually changes in a poker game besides equity....
When we can maximize our equity, we will make lots and lots of money.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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fold to 3b3t%: 64%
4bet%: 11%
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,814
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edit: wow I actually just looked again since the start of the month.
3bet% 7.5
3bet call 24%
Fold to 3bet 55%
that makes my 4bet% 21 
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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i dont 4bet since ive found they always have it
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jyms
edit: wow I actually just looked again since the start of the month.
3bet% 7.5
3bet call 24%
Fold to 3bet 55%
that makes my 4bet% 21 |
check your raise 3bet stat in HEM, 4betting 21% cant be right.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Da GOAT
i dont 4bet since ive found they always have it
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haha!
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,147
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My god people, I normally dont like giving general advice but i dont see any reason why your fld to 3bet% isnt 75%+. 65% is pretty low, 55% is ridiculously low.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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But we can outplay them on future streets! amirite gais!
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
But we can outplay them on future streets! amirite gais!
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absotootly
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,599
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
My god people, I normally dont like giving general advice but i dont see any reason why your fld to 3bet% isnt 75%+. 65% is pretty low, 55% is ridiculously low.
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You've definitely said this in other threads before. I completely agree with with this, for like lower stakes games where 3-betting light isn't THAT rampant, but how do you get away with this at our higher stakes games?
I feel like I pound on ppl that fold to >75% 3bets nonstop, and if they call and I don't have anything legit I mostly just c/f. Do you feel you make up for this, by ppl not adjusting enough and not c/f'ing enough?
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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wud love some analysis on your thoughts isf why 75%+ is good.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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gametight
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 494
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Wow... my fold the 3bet is only 57%, with a 4bet of 11% and this is at full ring.
Is it really a leak if your almost never calling 3bets oop and it usually like, I make it $3 from button, bb makes it $10 and Im only calling $7 with at least 100bb stax in pos.???
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JL
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,094
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I completely agree with ISF.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we are 4-betting 11% of the time, wouldn't that mean we are 4bet bluffing way more often than we are 4betting for value?
My 4bet% is at only ~5% and I do bluff once in a while and 4bet JJ+, AK most of the time for value.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
But we can outplay them on future streets! amirite gais!
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This is my problem. I'll "outplay them postflop on non-scary boards", but in reality almost all the time play fit or fold postflop.
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Just playing to improve.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,599
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JL
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we are 4-betting 11% of the time, wouldn't that mean we are 4bet bluffing way more often than we are 4betting for value?
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Not necessarily, there are lots of ppl that 3bet waaay too much and shove light enough that I'm 4bet calling off 88+. Really depends on villain though obviously.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
But we can outplay them on future streets! amirite gais!
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This is my problem. I'll "outplay them postflop on non-scary boards", but in reality almost all the time play fit or fold postflop. |
I would say it's everyone's leak in this thread!
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JL
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we are 4-betting 11% of the time, wouldn't that mean we are 4bet bluffing way more often than we are 4betting for value?
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This should always be the case.
fwiw, I think 75% fold to 3bet is absurd. I think 60-65% is reasonable.
edit: This should always be the case as long as villain is folding more than 1/2 the time. Given that most villains' stack off range is 3% (JJ+,AK) or less you should 4bet bluff players 3betting 6% much less than those 3betting more. I think 8% is a good cutoff.
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JL
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,094
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JL
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we are 4-betting 11% of the time, wouldn't that mean we are 4bet bluffing way more often than we are 4betting for value?
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This should always be the case.
fwiw, I think 75% fold to 3bet is absurd. I think 60-65% is reasonable.
edit: This should always be the case as long as villain is folding more than 1/2 the time. Given that most villains' stack off range is 3% (JJ+,AK) or less you should 4bet bluff players 3betting 6% much less than those 3betting more. I think 8% is a good cutoff. |
So then it would be +EV to 5bet jam ATC against these players until they adjust, assuming they only call the 5bet jam with JJ+, AK.
I think folding to 75% of 3bets is completely reasonable.
I think defending against 3bets and defending your blinds go hand in hand. They are both overrated.
If you raise preflop and get re-raised, it is much better to err on the side of folding too often, rather than calling too often. When you fold, you lose only 3-4bbs. However, when you call or 4bet, you put your entire stack at risk.
If you aren't an excellent player and don't have good reads on your opponents, calling/4betting too often could become a massive leak
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JL
So then it would be +EV to 5bet jam ATC against these players until they adjust, assuming they only call the 5bet jam with JJ+, AK.
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Yeah this would definitely be +ev. A small 4bet is much cheaper though.
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JL
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,094
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JL
So then it would be +EV to 5bet jam ATC against these players until they adjust, assuming they only call the 5bet jam with JJ+, AK.
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Yeah this would definitely be +ev. A small 4bet is much cheaper though. |
Do you mean a small 5bet?
If you do, then you can't possibly 5bet and then fold, so I don't see how it could be cheaper.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Sorry, I misread your first reply, I thought you wrote it would be +EV to 4bet jam ATC as hero. Didn't realize you meant 5bet jam as villain. Of course villain can adjust to our greater bluffing frequency, but then they're risking their stack when we're risking less than 1/3 of ours. There's a reasonably unexploitable 4bet bluffing frequency that someone calculated here awhile ago (renton maybe?) and it was close to 3:1 bluffs to value. I say reasonably b/c if they really start 5bet jamming ATC then you have to reduce your bluff frequency, but as I said, that's super exploitable b/c they're risking so much more on their bluff than you are.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
...as I said, that's super exploitable b/c they're risking so much more on their bluff than you are.
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For 100 BB they really aren't. Considering the equity they have when called, they're risking somewhere between 30% and 35% of their stack. With your 4-bet you're risking around 25% of a stack.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JL
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we are 4-betting 11% of the time, wouldn't that mean we are 4bet bluffing way more often than we are 4betting for value?
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This should always be the case.
fwiw, I think 75% fold to 3bet is absurd. I think 60-65% is reasonable. |
If 75% is exploitable, it's less so than 60%.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,814
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bode
check your raise 3bet stat in HEM, 4betting 21% cant be right.
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After a monster session last night my stats for the month.
I definitely still call too much, I must really call a ton vs only certain opponents though.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,147
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Factors to decide how much to call a 3bet or 4 bet.
1. How much your opponent is threebetting you.
2. How big they are threebetting you.
3. How much you are opening from whatever position preflop.
4. How passive/aggressive op is post flop (for 4betting how good he is postflop as well).
Normally #1, especially at low stakes, is pretty low.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,147
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JL
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we are 4-betting 11% of the time, wouldn't that mean we are 4bet bluffing way more often than we are 4betting for value?
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This should always be the case.
fwiw, I think 75% fold to 3bet is absurd. I think 60-65% is reasonable.
edit: This should always be the case as long as villain is folding more than 1/2 the time. Given that most villains' stack off range is 3% (JJ+,AK) or less you should 4bet bluff players 3betting 6% much less than those 3betting more. I think 8% is a good cutoff. |
Its absurd to make this big of a generalization. If your opponent is 3betting AA only, you should only play AA, so I guess your fold to 3bet% is something like 99% against this guy, right? Just because your folding a lot doesn't mean someone is doing something about it.
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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Mine is 75%, and I think I don't fold enough. I think a lot of this depends on your games and your selection of said games. I think that Im folding 90% oop and maybe 60 IP, but this is something Im still working on. My 4 bet is 5%, but again most of this is oop, and I am raising 20%+ from utg - btn. If you can seat select well, which includes getting the nits on your left, you can feel confident folding 85%+ to 3bets.
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"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,322
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
My god people, I normally dont like giving general advice but i dont see any reason why your fld to 3bet% isnt 75%+. 65% is pretty low, 55% is ridiculously low.
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Glad you clarified. The way your first post was worded thought you were scolding everything for folding 65% of the time and should be calling more. I totally agree with ISF on this one. If you small stakes guys feel you need to call 35% or more 3-bets your game selection needs work.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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meetfdc
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Manchester, USA
Posts: 8
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mine is 60.87%...
is that good/?
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,147
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
If you small stakes guys feel you need to call 35% or more 3-bets your game selection needs work.
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Thats not true, at least not always.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,322
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
If you small stakes guys feel you need to call 35% or more 3-bets your game selection needs work.
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Thats not true, at least not always. |
I was generalizing off your generalizing.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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I just found that HEM and PT fold to 3 bet stats are drastically different. PT3 counts every time you fold to a 3 bet when action is on you regardless if you made the original raise that was 3 bet or not. HEM only counts times you fold after YOUR raise gets 3 bet.
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,599
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz
I just found that HEM and PT fold to 3 bet stats are drastically different. PT3 counts every time you fold to a 3 bet when action is on you regardless if you made the original raise that was 3 bet or not. HEM only counts times you fold after YOUR raise gets 3 bet.
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hmmm.. interesting.. so people's fold to 3bet stat is over-estimated with PT3 then? If this was the case, this would definitely change the stats quite a bit!
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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HEM says 64%, PT3 says 73%, which definitely seems more accurate
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,147
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
If you small stakes guys feel you need to call 35% or more 3-bets your game selection needs work.
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Thats not true, at least not always. |
I was generalizing off your generalizing. |
lol nice
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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LOL at PT3's way of calculating fold to 3b%
ISF if you use PT3 that would make a lot more sense...
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,147
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
LOL at PT3's way of calculating fold to 3b%
ISF if you use PT3 that would make a lot more sense...
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hmmm yeah i do explain this.
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