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Tried to get tricky

  
 
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Anosmic
Old 08-29-2006, 06:12 AM     Post subject: Tried to get tricky #1 (permalink)  
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I was playing tighter and tighter against a fairly loose table so I wasn't getting much action on my pfrs... so I decided to just limp my kings and let the LAG to my left do the raising.

What do you think of the line? When it was checked to me I thought that a weak-bet might induce a bluff/semi-bluff. And the board isn't drawish...

I thought that leaving it as a call on the flop allows me to get the money in on later streets, while I think FE is low a c/r could scare him off.

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No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.20
5 players
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Stack sizes:
UTG: $38.26
CO: $19.70
Hero: $13.00
SB: $25.15
BB: $16.90

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is Button with K K
UTG calls, CO folds, Hero calls, SB raises to $0.6, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero raises to $2.2, SB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 2 5 Q ($6.8, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $1.6, SB raises to $4.8, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: 6 ($16.4, 2 players)
SB bets $7.8, Hero calls all-in $6.
Uncalled bets: $1.8 returned to SB.

River: J ($28.4, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $28.4)


Results:
Final pot: $28.4
Blah blah Op Blah blah

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natdang
Old 08-29-2006, 06:20 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I think that limping KK from button is risky, you really gotta be sure that one of SB or BB will lead.

But as played, I think that you did what you set out to do, and got the money in with a (presumably) better hand. If he's raising 3x with 34 and calling your pfr, then GG for your KK... You pay off a set as well. But your line is fine if your read is that villain will bet if checked to, and raise the weak c-bet. You want the money in the pot w/ this hand and I think you did fine.
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andy-akb
Old 08-29-2006, 02:42 PM #3 (permalink)  
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I think this hand is gross.

Reload PF. Make your standard raise here, you said the table is loose so they will be calling your raise. If they reraise you, push, you are a shortstack.

As played, whats up with the flop bet? Given your stack I bet ~$4ish and will hope to get it in on the turn or push over a reraise.
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jackvance
Old 08-29-2006, 02:50 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
I think this hand is gross.

Reload PF. Make your standard raise here, you said the table is loose so they will be calling your raise. If they reraise you, push, you are a shortstack.

As played, whats up with the flop bet? Given your stack I bet ~$4ish and will hope to get it in on the turn or push over a reraise.
He is trapping his opponent.
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andy-akb
Old 08-29-2006, 05:18 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackvance
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
I think this hand is gross.

Reload PF. Make your standard raise here, you said the table is loose so they will be calling your raise. If they reraise you, push, you are a shortstack.

As played, whats up with the flop bet? Given your stack I bet ~$4ish and will hope to get it in on the turn or push over a reraise.
He is trapping his opponent.
Yea, I know, Im asking why.

Given the stack size we dont need to trap our opponent.
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jackvance
Old 08-29-2006, 06:14 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
Yea, I know, Im asking why.

Given the stack size we dont need to trap our opponent.
If you notice a guy folds to displays of strength and likes to jump weakness, then you wait for a good hand and fake weakness.. I don't think it's any more complicated than that.
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natdang
Old 08-29-2006, 06:17 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Name a reasonable hand that beats him here. Only a set seems remotely possible with this board. Hence, trapping works because he got it in with the best hand, and has villain with Qx thinking he has the best hand due to hero's apparent weakness.
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andy-akb
Old 08-29-2006, 07:24 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Yea he got it in with what was probably the best hand but when stacks are this short you do not need to get tricky and doing so is only going to hurt you.

Jack, he never said any of that in his post and it was all based on general speculation, not on any past experiences with that player.

In a reraise pot where our stack is less than twice the pot on the flop, we simply do not have any reason to get tricky. If we were 200BBs deep, and had a rock solid read on our opponent that he will fold to any strength and bet when he sees weakness then maybe this is ok. Even then though, we showed a ton of strength PF with a limp reraise and he still stuck around. Those reads go out the window when he has a hand he actually likes, which in this case it looks like he does.
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jackvance
Old 08-29-2006, 07:42 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 Haven't we had this discussion before? Atleast I somehow seem to remember you have a big aversion towards slowplay for some reason.
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andy-akb
Old 08-29-2006, 08:17 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackvance
Haven't we had this discussion before? Atleast I somehow seem to remember you have a big aversion towards slowplay for some reason.
I dont really know how much of a discussion we are having right now seeing as you havent really explained your position.

There are times to slowplay, but not in a reraised pot with a shortstack. We have no reads on our opponent [atleast none given in the OP] but given the action preflop we can assume he likes his hand. Honestly, just look at the pot size and our stack, I think we would need to try hard not to get it in.

Bet flop for atleast 1/2pot and then push the turn, I just dont see what we gain by getting tricky in such a straight forward hand and you also havent explained that.
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benny999
Old 08-29-2006, 08:27 PM #11 (permalink)  
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I'd also just raise this pre flop to hopefully isolate to the lag and build the pot early. Even against a lag, you end up in a limped 4way pot too often versus the times you can limp reraise. It's not worth it imo (unless you're ultra-confident the lag will raise your limp...), especially if you're raising a wide enough range on the button so they still think you're full of it.

Post flop, with the short stack, this hand isn't too complicated and you have more options since KK is like the nuts for you in this spot. So I think you played it ok but cbetting normal sized probably works out just as well. Still, like suggested, reload to full and you can be winning more!
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Silly String
Old 08-29-2006, 08:43 PM #12 (permalink)  
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I would just note that any limp-reraise at 25NL and 50NL is so very often AA or KK, that I don't even take a flop against them. This may work on LAGdonk, but don't try it vs. aware opponents.
Limp-reraise just screams: "I don't want to fold everyone out, but I want action on my AA."
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natdang
Old 08-29-2006, 10:55 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Andy's right, in this situation with only $13 to start the hand, if he c-bets 4 on the flop, then he can push the turn and will likely get called, since it'll only be an open-push of about $7.

However, I like this play given full stacks and the read on villain as a LAGtard who will hang himself.
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Anosmic
Old 08-30-2006, 05:42 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly String
I would just note that any limp-reraise at 25NL and 50NL is so very often AA or KK, that I don't even take a flop against them. This may work on LAGdonk, but don't try it vs. aware opponents.
Limp-reraise just screams: "I don't want to fold everyone out, but I want action on my AA."
Good tip.

A lot of my poker development seems to be trying something to fool a donk and then being told "oh yeah, low-limit fish do that all the time".
Blah blah Op Blah blah

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