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TPTK when deep and OOP

  
 
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Vi-Zer0Skill
Old 07-01-2008, 08:07 PM     Post subject: TPTK when deep and OOP #1 (permalink)  
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 Villain is a 21/18 decent TAG. He’s capable of raising the flop with air because we are deep. He’s also capable of double/triple barrel bluffs. No history or recent table action that’s relevant.


Seat 2: VI-Popsmak ($389.90 in chips)
Seat 3: Villain ($374.35 in chips)
3 other players
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to VI-Popsmak [As Kc]
VI-Popsmak: raises $6 to $8
Villain: calls $8
3 folds
*** FLOP *** [7h 5d Ah]
VI-Popsmak: bets $14
Villain: raises $28 to $42
VI-Popsmak: calls $28
*** TURN *** [7h 5d Ah] [Jc]
VI-Popsmak: checks
Villain: bets $77
VI-Popsmak: folds


Lesson I learned: when 200BB deep, major adjustments have to be made to your c-betting range versus good competent regulars. Bet/calling the flop and check/folding the turn seems like a terrible line to me, so I started thinking about alternate lines…


Benefits of a flop check/raise

1). I can easily fold to a 3bet since his range would contain 5-5/7-7/combo draws/air
2). If my opponent just calls my check/raise, my hand is likely ahead of his range.

Downsides

1). If my check/raise is called, my hand may be ahead of his range but because the pot is now bloated I’m going to have to give up on the hand on draw completing turns.
2). My turn bet on a blank turn is usually only called/raised by a hand stronger than my TPTK. Therefore I might as well be semi-bluffing with a line like this.

Benefits of a flop check/call

1). The pot isn't bloated.
2). My hand remains ahead of villain’s range.
3). My decisions on the turn/river are easier.
4). Check/call down unless a draw completes. If that happens, check/fold.

Downside

Basically I have to play the hand passively while OOP and give my opponent the opportunity to see the turn/river cards cheaply.


I wouldn’t have thought that check/calling down would be the better line. Am I forgetting any important details that might make check/raising better or check/calling worse?


This hand didn’t actually happen, but the scenario was something that crossed my mind while I was playing today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
 
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Vi-Zer0Skill
Old 07-01-2008, 08:09 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 btw it would be awesome if some discussion regarding deepstack play also got started in this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
 
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 07-02-2008, 08:16 AM #3 (permalink)  
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how about b/3b/f the flop? even a min 3bet...
but of course it'd totally suck if they called...
 
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Fnord
Old 07-02-2008, 08:45 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Just a couple orbits on this guy. By the looks of things, he was semi-Tight and Aggressive.

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($265.05)
Hero ($669.75)
BTN ($409.40)
SB ($200.00)
BB ($32.00)

Pre-flop: ($3, 5 players) Hero is CO
1 fold, Hero raises to $6, BTN raises to $21, 2 folds, Hero folds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Fnord
Old 07-02-2008, 08:55 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
how about b/3b/f the flop? even a min 3bet...
but of course it'd totally suck if they called...
The problem is that against a decent if tightish/passivish opponent as the pot gets bigger his hand no longer figures to have the best of it as we will only tend to beat his bluffs and missed draws.

This spot is all about post-flop reads. Without any, you need to exercise pot control. If you know more about him, then you then can figure what he's doing this with and if you figure to be good in a big pot against him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Vi-Zer0Skill
Old 07-02-2008, 06:32 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 thx for commenting guys

i can't see folding AKs preflop to one 3bet, even considering we are OOP and deep. Our 3bet calling range has gotta be exploitably tight OOP if we fold AKs since i assume you are only calling with <K-K.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
 
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