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Fnord
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07-11-2007, 10:20 AM
Post subject: TPTK vs Sis
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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My opponent in this hand is SisterSadie. She's got to be running at least 4 tables, maybe 8.
15/13 Squeeky tight with a reasonable 4x raise range. I probably had her raise range under-estimated when I played this hand pre-flop. I recently took down a medium pot by playing a hand really sick fast against her and have gone to war with the LAgg on 2 of our other tables. So I decided to play this super-fast and hope to get a call-down. Bad idea?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Fnord ($175.70)
UTG ($112.55)
MP ($163.15)
CO ($92.50)
Button ($101.20)
SB ($332.75)
Preflop: Fnord is BB with K , A .
UTG raises to $4, 4 folds, Fnord calls $3.
Flop: ($8.50) 4 , A, 6 (2 players)
Fnord checks, UTG bets $6, Fnord raises to $18, UTG calls $12.
Turn: ($44.50) 4 (2 players)
Fnord bets $30, UTG calls $30.
River: ($104.50) 8 (2 players)
Fnord bets $123.7 (All-In) (around $60 since I have more chips)
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noble007
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: London
Posts: 531
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What do you beat besides AQ that 15/13 is raising UTG and taking to river?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by noble007
What do you beat besides AQ that 15/13 is raising UTG and taking to river?
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Yup
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snowbird4life
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 246
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I think this is fine. Besides 3-betting that shit pre, I like it. I can easily see a 15/13 (13 really isn't that low) holding aq, aj, even a10 here. However the 15 vpip scares me. I guess your nightmare would be if she raised 66, a6s, a4s, 64s etc, but 66 seems like the only likely hand. Also, she doesn't seem like the passive type with big hands.
However, how you have described your play (real fast and she prolly thinks u stole one), i think this is fine, (unless she is anticipating you 3 barreling your ace and is slowplaying eeek). Eeeeee position sucked for you on this one. Even though i think this is fine, my bet is she shows down 66, maybe aq, but im thinking 66.
But, unless she really hit a miracle flop though, i think your normally ahead here and this is fine.
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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ugh it kinda plays itself after flop. i imagine opp has AK or AQ. any stronger should of shoved turn since she has only 60 behind so im guessing opp is hoing you check river so she can SD cheaper
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nest of Douchebags
Posts: 2,184
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Split pot?
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LOL OPERATIONS
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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looks g00t. splitting with AK. might get value from AQ, KK, QQ. any other hand you are beaten by would have told you so earlier.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
Any other hand you are beaten by would have told you so earlier.
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Keep working on those phat hand reading skillz.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Bigred plays poker?
I like this hand Fnord, very likely a split or beating AQ.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Board: Ah 4s 6d
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.045% 35.84% 13.21% 8160 3007.50 { AA, 66, 44, AJs+, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 50.955% 37.75% 13.21% 8595 3007.50 { AdKh }
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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you're ahead everytime here to yeah great, why'd you even ask about this one? I'm fine with not repoping pre but in a better game it would be really dumb.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Tight villain, 4-card rainbow paired board, hero is willing to stick his chips in, say hello to A4/66.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
Any other hand you are beaten by would have told you so earlier.
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Keep working on those phat hand reading skillz. |
i don't know if this is a yes i do, or no i don't.
A4, A6 are clear not in his raising range preflop UTG.
if 13% is his total raising range, i doubt he raises 44 or 66 UTG.
i guess AA could play like this, if he knows you're aggressive.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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nh i play the same most of the time, sometimes check/call flop and 3/4 pot turn and river. i use that line because they are less likely to fold AT AJ AQ when someone isn't check raising them
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
if 13% is his total raising range, i doubt he raises 44 or 66 UTG.
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Why?
I've yet to see him open limp.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
if 13% is his total raising range, i doubt he raises 44 or 66 UTG.
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Why?
I've yet to see him open limp. |
hmmm, i incorrectly assumed that UTG raising would be less than the total PFR, but looking at my own stats now, the blinds lower your PFR a lot. in fact, my UTG PFR is 2% higher than my total.
so if this guy's raising 14-15% UTG, depending on which top hands rankings you use, would include 44 and 66.
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NLHE lahooozaher
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 916
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Hyper I play 15/12 and I raise all pps with or w/o limpers from any position but the blinds.
ps I'm trying to open up my game before I get into this $100 game 
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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nh, and i think you'll probably get a river call with AQ and AJ because she probably thinks your RRing AKs.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NLHE lahooozaher
Hyper I play 15/12 and I raise all pps with or w/o limpers from any position but the blinds.
ps I'm trying to open up my game before I get into this $100 game |
I'm pretty sure she's a pretty big winner among the player pool.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NLHE lahooozaher
Hyper I play 15/12 and I raise all pps with or w/o limpers from any position but the blinds.
ps I'm trying to open up my game before I get into this $100 game |
You really don't have to open up, you could do pretty well with those stats probably.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
if 13% is his total raising range, i doubt he raises 44 or 66 UTG.
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I run 21/13 and I raise any PP, any suited aces, suited KJ+ and other crap depending on the table dynamic.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
any suited aces
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How's that working out for you?
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WildBobAA
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: lol i dunno
Posts: 1,811
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
if 13% is his total raising range, i doubt he raises 44 or 66 UTG.
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my raising range is 11.6% and I open all pocket pairs from any position
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
any suited aces
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How's that working out for you? |
It works as long as you don't get too carried away with a paired ace at the wrong times obviously. I like these kind of hands now that I feel my post flop edge is bigger than a lot of the players at the table. I just find it's a hand you can often apply pressure with in a lot of spots. I should also mention my tables are 5-max but that doesn't make a huge difference I would think.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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You sound like a chump 
2 & 3 off the button, do A2s-A9s as a sum show a profit?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
any suited aces
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How's that working out for you? |
swingy versus fish/spewy callers but good against regs who respect your play.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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I am a chump.
I looked at just UTG since that would be the most questionable:
A2s - +144.65 over 51 hands
A3s - (10.07) over 57 hands
A4s - (43.55) over 66 hands
A5s - +46.05 over 57 hands
A6s - (50.15) over 66 hands
A7s - (76.25) over 45 hands
A8s - (86.40) over 50 hands
A9s - +138.80 over 50 hands
So it's not like it's a huge boost to my game (barely break even I guess). I'm still trying to play them better from here. It keeps me active which I like though.
This isn't a huge sample but I'll look back on them in a couple months and see how they're holding for me.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Over how many hands?
Both small suited stuff and suited Aces are losers for me all around and I've been trying to make sense of it. For now they've been demoted to a "sometimes" play depending on how I'm feeling since I think they're too important to my overall Shania to ditch.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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BTW: I ran into a set and lost the hand. Then I won it back in a slightly deeper hand where I played top set pretty fast and turned quads against middle set.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
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I hate small pairs and I generally just fold them UTG at a 6-handed table, but apparently everyone likes to open with all pairs because they like to play big pots out of position when they're set mining and/or c-betting with two outs.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
I generally just fold them UTG at a 6-handed table
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100+ deep folding 22 isn't an option. With shallow money you have a point and hence you should consider a limping range.
They're the perfect NLHE hand because you're rarely going to be faced with a difficult decision with them.
People c-bet not because they have "two-outs". They're doing it for immediate profit and to establish a range of betting hands. Having 2 hidden outs to a very strong hand on most flops just adds value.
I think the overall problem is that people c-bet OOP too often after being called by fairly strong players.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Over how many hands?
Both small suited stuff and suited Aces are losers for me all around and I've been trying to make sense of it. For now they've been demoted to a "sometimes" play depending on how I'm feeling since I think they're too important to my overall Shania to ditch.
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I have about 110k hands in my database but I haven't been doing this the whole time. I can't narrow it down with a date filter either because Pokerroom HHs don't import so well. About half of them don't have a date on them for some reason so I can't narrow it down to see the past 3 months or so.
Maybe you don't have success with them because your site is more aggressive. On Pokerroom, aside from the very few regs or spewtards, you aren't getting 3-bet with anything but AA or KK. I'd be folding them UTG if people were playing back at me but that's not the case the vast majority of the time.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
I generally just fold them UTG at a 6-handed table
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100+ deep folding 22 isn't an option. With shallow money you have a point and hence you should consider a limping range.
They're the perfect NLHE hand because you're rarely going to be faced with a difficult decision with them.
People c-bet not because they have "two-outs". They're doing it for immediate profit and to establish a range of betting hands. Having 2 hidden outs to a very strong hand on most flops just adds value.
I think the overall problem is that people c-bet OOP too often after being called by fairly strong players. |
I like that last line. I c/f lots of low flops being the PFR OOP and missed the flop, because there's generally very low FE. I also do it with QQ-AA sometimes to balance it.
It's something I'm experimenting with lately, with mixed results on a small sample size. I lose quite some small pots, but got paid off on the QQ-AA hands big a few times.
I think it's either c-bet and willing to 2barrel a lot, or c/f. I'm thinkin on c/r-ing because it has a LOT more FE but it's expensive too. Would like to hear your some thoughts on it.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
They're the perfect NLHE hand because you're rarely going to be faced with a difficult decision with them.
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If that means you should just set mine with them then I'm sure it's a losing play. If you're a really good post-flop player you might be able to play them but then you'll have to bluff sometimes and you'll have some difficult decisions after all in big pots out of position.
I stopped opening 22-66 UTG because I was down significantly over a large sample of hands.
I could limp with them, but this isn't 2004 anymore and people don't let you get away with it. If I'm at an all-star caliber table, sure I'll limp.
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