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Tough spot with queens (600nl)

  
 
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Alexos
Old 06-09-2007, 07:13 AM     Post subject: Tough spot with queens (600nl) #1 (permalink)  
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 Both villains are solid regs, both run like 24/18/4
We havnt played big pots before, and Ive been playing straightforward/tight.

Ive noticed button loves to reraise in position, so he can have a wide range here

Whats the best play to maximize value on the turn? b/f?

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $3/$6 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $622.35
[color:black]Hero (BB): $608.60[/color]
UTG: $1,220.85
MP: $896.30
CO: $669.20
BTN: $1,574.70

[color:black]Preflop:[/color] Hero is dealt Q Q (6 Players)
2 folds, [color:red]CO raises to $21.00[/color], [color:red]BTN raises to $72.00[/color], SB folds, Hero calls $66.00, CO calls $51.00

[color:black]Flop:[/color] ($219) 9 J 3 (3 Players)
Hero checks, CO checks, [color:red]BTN bets $165.00[/color], Hero ???
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Genitruc
Old 06-09-2007, 09:36 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 action stops at flop so I'll just give my opinion up to there.

preflop I like 4-betting and not folding

on the flop I think the best is to call and lead turn for about 225$ for protection. You will basically NEVER get bluffed when you take this line unless villain is a sicko.

This is very very close to CRai on flop (vs call and lead turn)but you're basically turning your hand into a bluff. THe benefit is obv protection. I think it'd all depends on how light I thought villain was c-betting.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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griffey24
Old 06-09-2007, 01:22 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
action stops at flop so I'll just give my opinion up to there.

preflop I like 4-betting and not folding

on the flop I think the best is to call and lead turn for about 225$ for protection. You will basically NEVER get bluffed when you take this line unless villain is a sicko.

This is very very close to CRai on flop (vs call and lead turn)but you're basically turning your hand into a bluff. THe benefit is obv protection. I think it'd all depends on how light I thought villain was c-betting.
If hero is gonna flat call this flop bet, and then lead the turn, the pot will be like $550 after the flop and hero will only have like $380 behind. So we're committed if we lead out anyway, so why not just push the flop IF we think we are ahead?
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 06-09-2007, 02:13 PM #4 (permalink)  
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this hand plays so much easier with a preflop 4bet.
 
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 06-09-2007, 02:51 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 I think with how you played it, postflop is very interesting. I'm still thinking about how i would want to play it though..
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Halv
Old 06-09-2007, 02:59 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
this hand plays so much easier with a preflop 4bet.
While it may play easier, does it have higher EV? I'm not saying it isn't, though I've started cold-calling these myself often. If I 4bet pre I probably just shove (makes the hand easier to play lol) to get a call from JJ/TT putting me on AK or a resteal. Does button's wider range push this closer to a call or a raise preflop? What about the presence of a third player? I think us being out of both positions actually sways this to a preflop shove for me.

As the played I'm with griffey, just c/r all in. I don't see a call flop/lead turn line giving us any more action then a c/r when we're ahead, might as well not let him catch the card he needs for cheap. The fact that he never calls with worse on the flop does not mean that the raise has no value.

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sauce123
Old 06-09-2007, 04:05 PM #7 (permalink)  
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i might lead for half pot here and c/r turn
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Alexos
Old 06-09-2007, 04:39 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 But how is bet/fold here on flop. I think it gets a lot of respect, and if someone pushes over we can be 95% sure we're beat, and fold?

In this hand, what kind of hand is button leading flop with anyways?
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 06-09-2007, 04:44 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 Fourbetting pre makes this a lot easier, but im not sure its the best play.... but as played i think a fold is really bad. I'm sure the BU is raising pre light here, whether he's cbetting multiway without a hand to a sb cold caller.... i think BU can safely say that CO is going to fold a lot of flops, so i think he could easily just fire an air barrel.

The thing is this guy could have almost no outs, which would make a flop cold call sexy, because wtf can we cold call here! He may think were thinking c/c, c/f and fire pure air again.
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Alexos
Old 06-09-2007, 04:46 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
i might lead for half pot here and c/r turn
Lead with the intention of calling a push? c/r turn doesn't have any FE, so I guess what you're saying is how to max ev, but then again if he has a better hand gg we pay it off?

What if turn is an A?
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Alexos
Old 06-09-2007, 04:53 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 Dude, what the hell can we cold call here honestly? This flop hit me right on I think. I dont see what else he can put me on other than 99-TT-JJ-QQ, maybe AA/KK...since I dont think cold calling here with AQ,AK is standard

So the only thing he can hope that I fold if he fires two barrels is TT and QQ.

Otherwise he'll have to put me on a much wider cold calling range, which I dont think is the case anyways
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sauce123
Old 06-09-2007, 04:56 PM #12 (permalink)  
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it sucks cause basically if he has u beat u need to pay off cause of his 3betting tendencies but its very unlikely u stack him.
I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
 
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Alexos
Old 06-09-2007, 05:01 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 Geni - I definitly prefer c/rai on flop MUUCH better than call flop lead turn, as you said because of protection.

If u call and lead turn, not only do the hands beating u still call on turn (AA, KK, JJ, 99) but u also give a chance for Ax or Kx to catch up on you.

And as I mentionned before I doubt he'll bluff turn again.
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sauce123
Old 06-09-2007, 06:03 PM #14 (permalink)  
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i actually think 4betting here is your best play alexos
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Genitruc
Old 06-09-2007, 07:28 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 i was depressed and high when I suggested calling flop and leading turn

I think the big question is how often you think he's c-betting into 2 ppl with AK/AQ unimproved.

If it's a lot, then crAI is best on flop.

If it's very small, but you think he'd bet his made hands like 1010, Jx or even something funky like 89s on flop, then you're not worried about protection, so you can call flop and lead turn just in case he "doesn't understand wtf you're doing" and calls you down with a TT type hand.

I realize this is very sketchy as I write it. CRai is fine and maybe best but I think it's really important to consider which hands he'd c-bet with and which hands he'd peel a turn with.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Alexos
Old 06-09-2007, 08:06 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 You're definitly right, that's why one of the questions I asked earlier is what type of hands is he betting on flop here vs two players?My guess is he has at least top pair good kicker here or tens at worst...

So, I end up calling, CO raises AI. WTF!! I was pretty sure it was a set, but there was 1.1k in the pot so I donk called it:P

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $3/$6 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $622.35
[color:black]Hero (BB): $608.60[/color]
UTG: $1,220.85
MP: $896.30
CO: $669.20
BTN: $1,574.70

[color:black]Preflop:[/color] Hero is dealt Q Q (6 Players)
2 folds, [color:red]CO raises to $21.00[/color], [color:red]BTN raises to $72.00[/color], SB folds, Hero calls $66.00, CO calls $51.00

[color:black]Flop:[/color] ($219) 9 J 3 (3 Players)
Hero checks, CO checks, [color:red]BTN bets $165.00[/color], Hero calls $165.00, [color:red]CO raises all-in to $597.20[/color], BTN folds, Hero calls all-in for $371.60
Uncalled bet of $60.60 returned to CO

[color:black]Turn:[/color] ($1457.20) T (2 Players - 2 All-In)

[color:black]River:[/color] ($1457.20) Q (2 Players - 2 All-In)

Pot Size: $1,457.20 ($3 Rake)

CO had J J (three of a kind, Jacks) and LOST (-$608.60)
Hero had Q Q (three of a kind, Queens) and WON (+$845.60)
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 06-09-2007, 08:09 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 06-09-2007, 08:34 PM #18 (permalink)  
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 you have to fold the raise all in...
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Alexos
Old 06-09-2007, 08:59 PM #19 (permalink)  
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 I pokerstoved it...

It's close if we can include an OESD in his range

Plus I have some backdoor outs

Although you're right Max
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Halv
Old 06-10-2007, 12:17 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 Do solid regs really ever crai OESD's vs a cbet + call in a 3bet pot? He has implied odds to just call and stack one or both of you anyway, and very little FE vs 2 people.

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