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Theory Topic: Bring back the slowplay?? (Long)

  
 
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sauce123
Old 03-09-2007, 07:40 AM     Post subject: Theory Topic: Bring back the slowplay?? (Long) #1 (permalink)  
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This is a problem I have been wrestling with for awhile now. I almost never slowplay, I'm a winning player. I play aggressively and balance my game by betting strongly with my sets/bluffs/semibluffs in a relatively balanced manner. All of the regs I play with do the same thing, the winning ones at least. This is clearly a winning strategy at msnl (most of my experience being at 2/4 with some at 3/6 as well).

However, I feel like as I (hopefully) move up to 3/6, 5/10 etc and players squeeze more/ C/R bluff more/ shove overcards more/ double barrel more/ are better and more balanced and more aggressive, maybe one of my edge(s) will be from taking my strongest (and even mid strength hands) and just legit slowplaying them on even the scariest of boards.

There are a few factors which are making me consider this line of thinking:

1. Partly as a joke on HSNL awhile ago Aejones posted about the "new" style of winning player, the LAP (lol). loose and passive. he will always call pre and post flop and you will NEVER know where you are!! Joke post, but it carried kind of a grain of truth in it as games seem to be soooo aggressive these days, that until ppl adjust, this player could conceivably win a few big pots.

2. Another hsnl post I read talked about how even though ABA called a CO raise on the button in a 5max game, the pfr didn't discount AA KK QQ JJ TT AK etc from his range, as the blinds are so prone to squeeze in a spot like this and Aba wouldn't lose too much equity by not 3betting in position/getting deception. (this is an argument for selective slowplaying PF)

3. A couple hands I played recently on Stars: and how I analyzed them later:
a) PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($924.65)
Button ($401.40)
SB ($704.65)
Hero ($425.90)
UTG ($283.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, J.
1 fold, MP raises to $16, Button calls $16, 1 fold, Hero calls $12.

Flop: ($50) Q, 4, K (3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $28, Button calls $28, Hero raises to $126, MP folds, Button calls $98.

Turn: ($330) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $283.9 (All-In), Button calls $259.40 (All-In).

River: ($873.30) 6 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $873.30- Villain had KQo

At the time villain was an unknown, but I later learned he was a loose and pssive fish, lol. Now obviously his line is "terrible" but at the same time against me he played it perfectly. On turn, given the draws on the board I just couldn't put him on a made hand capable of calling a shove... and assumed I was ahead. Pwned.

b) PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($514)
SB ($618.20)
BB ($1104.55)
UTG ($406)
Hero ($388)

Preflop: Hero is MP with T, A.
1 fold, Hero raises to $16, 2 folds, BB calls $12.

Flop: ($34) T, 7, A (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $24, BB calls $24.

Turn: ($82) 5 (2 players)
BB bets $65, Hero raises to $274, BB folds.

Final Pot: $421

Villain in this hand is Krantz, a very good lag slummin it at 2/4 but definitely a winning HSNL player. On turn I am sure that I'm way ahead, but I am also sure that my raise has allowed him to play perfectly. Now an argument can be made for a smaller raise to induce a shove, but I think that amounts to almost the same thing... a sort of slowplay. This board is obviously scary specially considering he runs 32/26 or somethin. His profits definitely come from an incredible ability to read hands, and against a thinking player, could it be good to call this turn on a Veeeerrry drawy board and then shove over his river bet and/or make an overbet when checked to, as he is clearly capable of calling with any pair if he thinks its good. And I discount "building a pot" as a reason to raise turn as I am 90% sure he doesn't have a made hand that wants to call a shove. Slowplay?

Conclusion (Kinda?)- As the player pool has gotten better and better and it becomes safer and safer to assume opponents are thinking on 3 or more levels, maybe it becomes right to deliberately give free or cheap cards on drawy boards to grossly misrepresent your hand, a (relatively) small percentage of the time to confuse and allow your thinking opponents to create bad hand ranges and induce big bluffs, but not at the expense of the tag or lag style which is necessary for winning poker. Sauce.
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sauce123
Old 03-09-2007, 07:44 AM #2 (permalink)  
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Its 4am right now and Im procrastinating for midterms lol, so there may be some inconsistencies.
I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
 
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Genitruc
Old 03-09-2007, 08:12 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 ummm....

yes?
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Irisheyes
Old 03-09-2007, 12:24 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Good post.

The only thing that I have spent a lot of tme thinking about lately is your second point. I think it is deffinitly a valid strategy in games where there is a lot of 3beting.


Also, that second hand is just a bad spot to c/r.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 03-09-2007, 02:07 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 Great Post.

But As with most great posts, I'm not sure exactly what to say. You could try experimenting with certain spots to be loose passive, but then again its a lot harder to balance a range when there's no bluff equity. Its not like you're going to do a call down bluff lol.
But then again, you really don't have to. Pretty much the only place I see this fit is versus an opp who is three barrelling a lot. In this case, you simply are calling all streets with a monster hand. Of course, now you pretty much have to lose some bluff aggression versus this guy, but a lot of bad laggs/good laggs are three barrelling everytime there opponents call them down two streets.

I'm interested in what kind of spot the call down line would be good you think?
Junk flops? Axx? TT9 types?
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sauce123
Old 03-09-2007, 02:39 PM #6 (permalink)  
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- O yea, on hand one I'll sometimes C/R here as the pfr cant call without at the very least tptk with other caller behind him and the original caller likely cant call a C/R as they smooth called the the PFR. I also have a little bit of a hand here so I may have some outs if called.
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Rondavu
Old 03-09-2007, 03:26 PM #7 (permalink)  
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If you're playing 400NL, and don't know when or when not to jam a flop, you're in some serious trouble.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 03-09-2007, 04:52 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 If in a situation you believe it is better to call than to raise with your strong hand, because you feel it will make you more money in the long run, then do it. What makes this complicated is that on a draw heavy board you may be giving him drawing odds, but if he's prone to make bluffs even when they miss then it might be worth it.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 03-09-2007, 04:54 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
If you're playing 400NL, and don't know when or when not to jam a flop, you're in some serious trouble.
Please explain more
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gabe
Old 03-09-2007, 05:08 PM #10 (permalink)  
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why would u raise the turn so big in hand 2? that makes no sense
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sauce123
Old 03-09-2007, 05:34 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Yea my turn raise is bad, I wanted to raise enough so that I had enough for a good size river bet and enough so that he may think he has FE on a push. Unfortunately I clicked wrong button on my AHK script lol.
I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
 
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sauce123
Old 03-09-2007, 05:39 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Rondavu are you coaching?
I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
 
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jackvance
Old 03-09-2007, 06:02 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 I think it can work miracles for you to slowplay on occassion because you're apparently so damn aggressive that people might be relieved when you show weakness so they can try to push you off your hand, in which case it's cool to sometimes have a hand then.
Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
 
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zenbitz
Old 03-09-2007, 07:40 PM #14 (permalink)  
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1) not a high stakes player, but I would think you have to slowplay sometimes against good players

2) slow playing is OBVIOUSLY ideal against laggy players who attack weakness... as long as the deck hits you in the face. The problem of course is two fold: 1) you never win unless you get a good hand. 2) your good hands have to be better than the laggs.
1) and 2) both generally lead to loss of money in the long run for the slowplayer.
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Vi-Zer0Skill
Old 10-03-2007, 02:47 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 in the spirit of the theory thread in the HSNL forum...


Have you been applying this strategy at 5/10 10/20?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
 
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biondino
Old 10-03-2007, 10:27 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Slowplaying = YES if only because if you don't, that's one fewer weapon in your arsenal and one fewer element for your opponents to have to consider.
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Ash256
Old 10-03-2007, 12:02 PM #17 (permalink)  
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 Nice post sauce, will get read and re-read.

What about a scenario where villain's calling range has us crushed, e.g. this example vs. a tight-passive setfarmer:

Board: As 7c 2h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 74.285% 49.45% 24.83% 52875 26550.00 { 77, 22, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 25.715% 00.88% 24.83% 945 26550.00 { AKo }
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 10-03-2007, 02:36 PM #18 (permalink)  
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 Add On:

I think this post may have some teeth. I was recently sweating a HU much between my friend and ADZ and we were both mind boggled by ADZ style. He was clearly missing tons of thin vbets, playing incredibly passive, and in general acting "stupid." My friend talked to straate about it and straate pretty much said "hmmmm I think you play well against his playing style."

It seems like there is a strategy that involves loose passive play where you can balance your lines really passively to exploit super aggression and super thin vbets. I wish we had ADZ to explain this, clearly we don't.

This should probably be moved to HSNL.
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zook
Old 10-03-2007, 03:56 PM #19 (permalink)  
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I've been slowplaying a little bit at 5/10... flat-calling AA/KK/AK ip pre when there are squeezers in the blinds... not 4-betting AA/KK/AK pre... occasionally not raising two pair+ hands on somewhat drawy flops. I hadn't given it as much thought as sauce did, but it makes sense when regulars often have a wide range and aren't afraid to 3-barrel bluff.
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gabe
Old 10-03-2007, 05:14 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Add On:

I think this post may have some teeth. I was recently sweating a HU much between my friend and ADZ and we were both mind boggled by ADZ style. He was clearly missing tons of thin vbets, playing incredibly passive, and in general acting "stupid." My friend talked to straate about it and straate pretty much said "hmmmm I think you play well against his playing style."

It seems like there is a strategy that involves loose passive play where you can balance your lines really passively to exploit super aggression and super thin vbets. I wish we had ADZ to explain this, clearly we don't.

This should probably be moved to HSNL.
ADZ mixes it up, he doesnt play like this more than 50% of the time
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dsaxton
Old 10-03-2007, 08:58 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Slow-playing makes sense against overly aggressive players, especially if they consistently try to pick on weakness.

Anyways, there are some situations where you're legitimately weak and no play makes sense other than calling. If you never slow-play you are telling your opponents that you're always weak when you call.

In my opinion, never slow-playing is just as exploitable as any other "pure" strategy in poker.
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protell
Old 10-04-2007, 10:39 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biondino
Slowplaying = YES if only because if you don't, that's one fewer weapon in your arsenal and one fewer element for your opponents to have to consider.
well stated
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