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bigspenda73
Old 04-04-2007, 11:17 PM     Post subject: Standardo or Retardo? #1 (permalink)  
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 Trying to work on my blind play. How's this line? Am I folding too much? Felt like QT on the river but I failed to realize he would've caught up on the turn.

Villain is 40/10 with Attempt to steal blinds=7.6%

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($25)
UTG ($54.28)
MP ($26)
CO ($12.36)
Button ($8.16)
SB ($20.19)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, J.
4 folds, SB raises to $0.5, Hero calls $0.25.

Flop: ($1) 3, 9, J (2 players)
SB bets $0.25, Hero raises to $1, SB calls $0.75.

Turn: ($3) 8 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.5, SB calls $1.50.

River: ($6) K (2 players)
SB bets $6, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $12
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mixchange
Old 04-04-2007, 11:27 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I think you have to call this.
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cjs55
Old 04-04-2007, 11:37 PM #3 (permalink)  
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If it were Kd on the river then I'd fold. But as is, I'm definitely calling. He could have a busted draw so easily here, thinking the king can get you off of your hand.
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bigspenda73
Old 04-05-2007, 12:02 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 So we think that at 25NL our opponents are thinking?
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gabe
Old 04-05-2007, 12:12 AM #5 (permalink)  
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nope, thats why you call
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givememyleg
Old 04-05-2007, 12:13 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 Woah did you notice you rivered 2pair? Call all day long. I also like a bigger turn bet, around $2.5 or so.

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bigspenda73
Old 04-05-2007, 12:18 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by givememyleg
Woah did you notice you rivered 2pair? Call all day long. I also like a bigger turn bet, around $2.5 or so.
Really, jeez I almost checked thru the turn but I bet a little bit less than what I wanted to call on the river hoping if he called we could just check down the river.
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givememyleg
Old 04-05-2007, 12:21 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 In a blind war TPGK is a great hand.

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bigspenda73
Old 04-05-2007, 12:25 AM #9 (permalink)  
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 What about this hand? I posted it a week or so ago and no replies. Same scenario?

Villian is 40/10 and has been constantly limping on my BB. I've been popping him for the most part but I'm 4tabling and miss the chance this time. This hand ensues:

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($31.66)
Button ($36.66)
SB ($27.74)
Hero ($33.88)
UTG ($24.55)
MP ($24.99)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7, 9.
4 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($0.50) 7, 3, 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.5, SB calls $0.50.

Turn: ($1.50) 9 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1, SB calls $1.

River: ($3.50) 4 (2 players)
SB bets $3.5, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $7
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griffey24
Old 04-05-2007, 12:41 AM #10 (permalink)  
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 I don't get these folds bigspenda.

In the second hand, what makes you think that villain would be calling two streets with a 5 in his hand?.. or two spades?

You have top two. It doesn't warrant a raise, but surely a call. You only need to be ahead in both of your hands 33% of the time, and I think its possible.

Also, if the turn card in the first hand was a 10, and then the K came. I might be more likely to find a fold, since the Q was open on the turn and QJ is definitely possible.

I think both of these are insta-calls though, as played. Its not like these are really big pots either, so I think that makes these calls even easier.
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bigspenda73
Old 04-05-2007, 12:46 AM #11 (permalink)  
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 So what do we normally see when someone open pots the river? I have yet to see a one pair hand do it.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 04-05-2007, 01:00 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
So what do we normally see when someone open pots the river? I have yet to see a one pair hand do it.
Personally, I see a lot of bad hands do this, mostly missed draws.
I call them both, im not folding top two to a guy who didn't raise once throughout the entire hand. It's not like his bets are more than pot so you only have to be right a third of the time.
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givememyleg
Old 04-05-2007, 01:06 AM #13 (permalink)  
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 I think 2 is closer but I'd probably still call.

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Renton
Old 04-05-2007, 01:40 AM #14 (permalink)  
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 terrible fold. You could probably have called if the river wasn't a K.
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andy-akb
Old 04-05-2007, 01:54 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Your sample must be pretty small [namely because of the fact that Att to steal is lower than PFR], so dont hold those numbers with a ton of confidence but you do know the guy is loose. PF is fine, sometimes I like a reraise here but calling sint bad, especially a minraise. The flop is fine, but on the turn thats a pretty small bet, Id make it closer to $2.50. On the river, I dont really know why we are folding here. What about this hand made you think QT? Why wouldnt they have lead turn or at least c/red? Ive got to agree with CJS here, this is going to be a busted FD a lot and sometimes youll even see random worse 1 pair hands. I would expect to be ahead here 50%+ minimum, and we only need to be ahead 33% of the time to make this profitable.

In the second hand, I dont really know why we are folding. I feel like I used to do this a lot because I was just like "OMG 4 to a straight" or backdoor flush or whatever, but those hands dont make a ton of sense. I probably raise PF a decent amount of the time, flop is fine and turn isnt bad either but then on the river what do we pot him on? Is he calling the flop with a gutshot? Maybe 65 or 75 or something like that, but do they call again on the turn? _Some_ of the time, yea, but we are still going to be ahead here enough to make it profitable. You havent seen a one pair hand do it because you keep folding.
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Genitruc
Old 04-05-2007, 01:55 AM #16 (permalink)  
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 I think a better line would be call flop, bet turn if checked to

Call river as played.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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bigspenda73
Old 04-05-2007, 02:07 AM #17 (permalink)  
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 I find myself in the unenviable spot of trying to buy cheap showdowns a lot and it has not been working lately. Betting a smaller amount on the turn than I would like to see bet on the river is generally my thought. However, all this does is bloat the pot for a full pot-sized bet by villain.

HOWEVER, checking through turns is just asking to face a pot-sized river bet b/c players at this level just do not understand pot control.

So, I ask you guys, what's better, trying for the cheap showdown or checking through the turn?
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givememyleg
Old 04-05-2007, 02:13 AM #18 (permalink)  
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 In both the hands you posted checking the turn is bad. I think you're really undervaluing your hands, you pretty much already are getting a cheap showdown. I mean you don't have to go to the felt with them.

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andy-akb
Old 04-05-2007, 02:31 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I find myself in the unenviable spot of trying to buy cheap showdowns a lot and it has not been working lately. Betting a smaller amount on the turn than I would like to see bet on the river is generally my thought. However, all this does is bloat the pot for a full pot-sized bet by villain.

HOWEVER, checking through turns is just asking to face a pot-sized river bet b/c players at this level just do not understand pot control.

So, I ask you guys, what's better, trying for the cheap showdown or checking through the turn?
Neither. I think you should be betting more on the turn.
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vegascoop
Old 04-05-2007, 03:10 AM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
HOWEVER, checking through turns is just asking to face a pot-sized river bet b/c players at this level just do not understand pot control.
Yes, please. Can I have another? I probably don't check this turn because of the draws and in a blind battle he'll be inclined to call your turn bet pretty light because he plays bad. In general though, checking the turn and calling a pot size bet on the end with a good hand is a nice revenue generator. They may not be thinking players but they know how to bluff when they miss.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 04-05-2007, 03:23 AM #21 (permalink)  
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 Neither of the hands you showed, especially the second one, should use pot control as an excuse for checking the turn.
In both instances u are on drawy boards where you want to protect your hand.
a lot of pros say a huge leak for low stakes players is they use pot control at the wrong times.
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griffey24
Old 04-05-2007, 04:43 AM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Neither of the hands you showed, especially the second one, should use pot control as an excuse for checking the turn.
In both instances u are on drawy boards where you want to protect your hand.
a lot of pros say a huge leak for low stakes players is they use pot control at the wrong times.
So what are the right and wrong times?

I feel like I check behind in the first hand sometimes, just because I figure a lot of the time the draw DOESN'T get there, villain will bluff lead into me and I'll make the second bet up that way. Also, these kinds of draw heavy boards are also the type of boards where I could get c/r'd hard by a lot of hands, two pair hands/draws and such and I only have KJ in the first hand.

As played, since we raised the flop, I would bet the turn. But if we flat called 1, I wouldn't mind checking the turn if checked to sometimes.

The second hand I obviously don't check through, we have two pair, and we're pounding it.
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noble007
Old 04-05-2007, 01:35 PM #23 (permalink)  
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yeah, obv bet turn strong call river esp. on non flush board with two pair.
Anyone re-raise hand 1 pre-flop with KJs?
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 04-05-2007, 02:02 PM #24 (permalink)  
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 I'm no expert in pot control so i didn't write it down, if someone could chime in that'd be great.
Pot control is to keep a pot small when playing for stacks would for all likely hood mean you are losing. Most of the time, by the turn I would think pot control is over, none of these pots are big at all.
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gabe
Old 04-05-2007, 02:42 PM #25 (permalink)  
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stop looking for cheap showdowns. if you think you are ahead enough, valuebet
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Rondavu
Old 04-05-2007, 03:20 PM #26 (permalink)  
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Consider his river bet a little gift from value heaven
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sauce123
Old 04-05-2007, 08:01 PM #27 (permalink)  
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WTF.... I would probably 3bet PF, bet more on every street and AT LEAST call river.
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bode
Old 04-05-2007, 08:55 PM #28 (permalink)  
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 first hand i am definitly 3-betting in position. Also easy calls on both hands.
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