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Standard set-line on harmless board?

  
 
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Tom42
Old 10-14-2006, 10:03 AM     Post subject: Standard set-line on harmless board? #1 (permalink)  
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Ok, this is pretty standard situation. You are OOP with a low pocket pair and you call a preflop raise from an average player who raises about 10-12% of his hands preflop. The flop comes all low cards and no flush draws, ... and you hit your set !!!!

What is the best line here to get the most out of it? And why?

1) Lead flop? 3- bet when raised or call and bet turn?

2) Check -raise C-bet?

3) Check - call C-bet, Lead turn when broadway comes? Or check-raise when no broadway comes?

4) Mix it up?

The line I probably used the most is check- raise villains C-bet, but I don't really know if this is a good thing. Most of the time villain will have two overs and fold.

This is the hand that inspired the post :

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($36.96)
Button ($73.40)
SB ($44.59)
BB ($19)
Hero ($61.40)
MP ($17.25)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6, 6. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
Hero calls $0.50, 1 fold, CO raises to $2, Button calls $2, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.50.

Flop: ($6.75) 6, 5, 3 (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets $3, Hero raises to $12, CO folds, Button folds.

Final Pot: $21.75

Results in white below:
No showdown. Hero wins $21.75.
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Genitruc
Old 10-14-2006, 10:51 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 I like leading preflop most of the time. If villain has overs you weren't gonna make much money anyways but if he has a big pair he'll likely 3-bet you and you can play for stacks.

If you are playing the same players a lot it's good to mix it up.

If you have seen the villain go broke w overpairs a lot then the check-raise line is fine since they probably won't get away from the big pairs and you pick up the c-bet in the event they have missed overs.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Warpe
Old 10-14-2006, 03:41 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Warpe is a jewel in the roughWarpe is a jewel in the roughWarpe is a jewel in the roughWarpe is a jewel in the rough
 Lead sometimes (esp. on dangerous boards), check raise flop sometimes (on dangerous boards against aggro opponents), check call on a safe board and lead turn sometimes, check call and check raise turn sometimes.

In the example hand, it's a relatively safe board so I'd be inclined to check to the p/f raiser, call the button bet and either lead the turn or check raise if he's aggro and I'm confident he'll fire a second barrel.
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Tom42
Old 10-15-2006, 02:05 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Yeah, leading seems to be the best option, especially if you do this with other hands too. Sometimes you will even induced laggy bluffs on a board like in the hand posted.

Check-raising seems to be the worst line here, because you blow overs out of the hand and don't give them a chance to catch something on the turn.

Thx.
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aislephive
Old 10-15-2006, 04:38 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Check raising is a great line against people who suck at folding (which is the majority of SSNL players). I check raise sets against regulars I've been out of line against all the time as well, and I also c/r bluff a good amount too.

The key is to mix it up and take different lines against players you play with on a daily basis. Sometimes check raise, sometimes check call, sometimes lead. If I'm very confident that the preflop raiser has an overpair, especially if the board is draw heavy I'll bet / 3bet ai, like this.

FullTiltPoker Game #1095492997: Table Park Vista (6 max) - $1/$2 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:42:41 ET - 2006/10/12
Seat 1: SNAYKSONAPLAIN ($201)
Seat 2: flopdisasta ($192.25)
Seat 4: cropdr ($163.30)
Seat 5: MUPokerPlayer ($203.10)
Seat 6: Locolaka ($199.05)
SNAYKSONAPLAIN posts the small blind of $1
flopdisasta posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SNAYKSONAPLAIN [3c 3d]
cropdr calls $2
MUPokerPlayer folds
Locolaka folds
SNAYKSONAPLAIN calls $1
flopdisasta raises to $8
cropdr calls $6
SNAYKSONAPLAIN calls $6
*** FLOP *** [9d 5d 3s]
SNAYKSONAPLAIN bets $18
flopdisasta raises to $50
cropdr calls $50
SNAYKSONAPLAIN raises to $193, and is all in
flopdisasta calls $134.25, and is all in
cropdr calls $105.30, and is all in
SNAYKSONAPLAIN shows [3c 3d]
flopdisasta shows [Qh Qs]
cropdr shows [6d 4d]
Uncalled bet of $8.75 returned to SNAYKSONAPLAIN
*** TURN *** [9d 5d 3s] [7c]
*** RIVER *** [9d 5d 3s 7c] [7s]
SNAYKSONAPLAIN shows a full house, Threes full of Sevens
flopdisasta shows two pair, Queens and Sevens
SNAYKSONAPLAIN wins the side pot ($57.90) with a full house, Threes full of Sevens
cropdr shows a straight, Seven high
SNAYKSONAPLAIN wins the main pot ($486.90) with a full house, Threes full of Sevens
flopdisasta is sitting out
cropdr is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $547.80 Main pot $489.90. Side pot $57.90. | Rake $3
Board: [9d 5d 3s 7c 7s]
Seat 1: SNAYKSONAPLAIN (small blind) showed [3c 3d] and won ($544.80) with a full house, Threes full of Sevens
Seat 2: flopdisasta (big blind) showed [Qh Qs] and lost with two pair, Queens and Sevens
Seat 4: cropdr showed [6d 4d] and lost with a straight, Seven high
Seat 5: MUPokerPlayer didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Locolaka (button) didn't bet (folded)

Then occasionally play it a little more passively to disguise my hand, like here.

FullTiltPoker Game #1103983516: Table Park Vista (6 max) - $1/$2 - No Limit Hold'em - 2:43:42 ET - 2006/10/15
Seat 1: feltgod08 ($376.55), is sitting out
Seat 2: pmow2131 ($309.85)
Seat 3: kilin em softly ($57)
Seat 4: Luepac ($379.30)
Seat 5: hustlaaa4life ($197), is sitting out
Seat 6: SNAYKSONAPLAIN ($202)
Luepac posts the small blind of $1
SNAYKSONAPLAIN posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SNAYKSONAPLAIN [4h 4d]
pmow2131 raises to $7
kilin em softly folds
Luepac calls $6
SNAYKSONAPLAIN calls $5
*** FLOP *** [4s Jh 7c]
Luepac checks
SNAYKSONAPLAIN checks
pmow2131 bets $18
Luepac folds
SNAYKSONAPLAIN calls $18
Luepac: guess not
*** TURN *** [4s Jh 7c] [7d]
SNAYKSONAPLAIN checks
pmow2131 has 15 seconds left to act
pmow2131 bets $35
SNAYKSONAPLAIN calls $35
*** RIVER *** [4s Jh 7c 7d] [5h]
SNAYKSONAPLAIN bets $70
pmow2131 has 15 seconds left to act
pmow2131: cant fold KK, dont show me 55
pmow2131 calls $70
*** SHOW DOWN ***
SNAYKSONAPLAIN shows [4h 4d] (a full house, Fours full of Sevens)
pmow2131 mucks
SNAYKSONAPLAIN wins the pot ($265) with a full house, Fours full of Sevens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $267 | Rake $2
Board: [4s Jh 7c 7d 5h]
Seat 1: feltgod08 is sitting out
Seat 2: pmow2131 mucked [Kd Kh] - two pair, Kings and Sevens
Seat 3: kilin em softly (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: Luepac (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: hustlaaa4life is sitting out
Seat 6: SNAYKSONAPLAIN (big blind) showed [4h 4d] and won ($265) with a full house, Fours full of Sevens

This player's PFR was very low so I put him on an overpair that I knew he wouldn't fold. Check raising sets can be a really good play.

***** Hand History for Game 5243736030 *****
$400 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, September 25, 00:19:47 ET 2006
Table Monster #1277238 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: sprasann ( $359.20 )
Seat 3: bohoman ( $463.80 )
Seat 4: arty2u ( $421.30 )
Seat 5: TTUBluffer ( $304 )
Seat 1: NEWPPSNKTHX ( $394 )
Seat 6: dj70ddler ( $385.20 )
sprasann posts small blind [$2].
bohoman posts big blind [$4].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to NEWPPSNKTHX [ 3c 3d ]
arty2u folds.
TTUBluffer raises [$14].
dj70ddler folds.
NEWPPSNKTHX calls [$14].
sprasann folds.
bohoman calls [$10].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3h, 8d, 7d ]
bohoman checks.
TTUBluffer bets [$40].
>You have options at Table 107226 Table!.
NEWPPSNKTHX raises [$170.70].
bohoman folds.
TTUBluffer is all-In.
NEWPPSNKTHX calls [$119.30].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qs ]
** Dealing River ** [ 6s ]
NEWPPSNKTHX shows [ 3c, 3d ] three of a kind, threes.
TTUBluffer shows [ Kd, Kh ] a pair of kings.
The time at which hand ended:Sep 25 2006 00:21 ET
NEWPPSNKTHX wins $620.50 from the main pot with three of a kind, threes.

I was very sure somebody here had an overpair, so I lead the flop very strongly.

***** Hand History for Game 5268293788 *****
$400 NL Texas Hold'em - Thursday, September 28, 16:11:26 ET 2006
Table Monster #1279232 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 3: aj7405 ( $64.07 )
Seat 4: StarTrak666 ( $580.86 )
Seat 6: vachoog ( $145.25 )
Seat 2: NEWPPSNKTHX ( $577.20 )
Seat 1: FundMyAudi ( $481.40 )
Seat 5: bogadadi ( $288.10 )
NEWPPSNKTHX posts small blind [$2].
aj7405 posts big blind [$4].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to NEWPPSNKTHX [ 5s 5c ]
>You have options at Monster #1277330 (No DP) Table!.
>You have options at Monster #1279137 (No DP) Table!.
>You have options at Monster #1277489 Table!.
StarTrak666 raises [$8].
bogadadi raises [$12].
vachoog folds.
FundMyAudi folds.
NEWPPSNKTHX calls [$10].
aj7405 folds.
StarTrak666 calls [$4].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9c, 3s, 5h ]
NEWPPSNKTHX bets [$30].
StarTrak666 folds.
bogadadi raises [$60].
NEWPPSNKTHX raises [$270].
bogadadi is all-In.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2c ]
** Dealing River ** [ Tc ]
NEWPPSNKTHX shows [ 5s, 5c ] three of a kind, fives.
bogadadi doesn't show [ Jc, Js ] a pair of jacks.
The time at which hand ended:Sep 28 2006 16:12 ET
NEWPPSNKTHX wins $23.90 from side pot #1 with three of a kind, fives.
NEWPPSNKTHX wins $588.70 from the main pot with three of a kind, fives.

You should try to put people on hands and then act accordingly with your lines. Somebody who is likely to have an overpair there are lots of ways you can win their stack, but some of them are good enough to get away from overpairs, so you have to specifically mix your lines up against them and also it helps to have a very aggro image so that they're more likely to give you less respect. Against certain regulars who I abuse daily I love taking the most aggressive lines. I'm not a big fan of a bet / 3 bet ai however on a dry board against a good player, particularly if the pot is multiway. They will be able to put you on a set very often and fold their overpair.

Hope that helps.
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Robert
Old 10-16-2006, 03:03 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Great post aisle!
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Tom42
Old 10-16-2006, 09:07 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Very nice.
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