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Sometimes I spew slow, sometimes I spew quick

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Fnord

06-30-2008, 06:46 AM Post subject: Sometimes I spew slow, sometimes I spew quick

#1 (permalink)

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Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Read stack sizes before replying

Too spewy? Opponents are both loose, terrible and probably blowing off some money for fun.

In retrospect, probably poor pre-flop hand selection against these guys.

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($205.00)
UTG+1 ($211.15)
Hero ($233.70)
BTN ($232.95)
SB ($73.00)
BB ($77.05)

Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is CO

2 folds, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, SB raises to $14, BB calls $12, Hero calls $8

Flop:

($42, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $65

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PapalRage

06-30-2008, 07:09 AM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Notre Dame

Posts: 309

any reads on how aggressive the shorties were postflop?

flop push looks ok if sb isn't the type to go for check raises with hands he wants to felt. i think they are calling with any pair if they have one and maybe some random A high crap depending on how terrible they are.

preflop, original raise isn't too bad but calling the small 3bet seems pretty bad even in position. there are very few flops you will be happy about stacking off on, and they don't have enough chips to make it worth it.

ndultimate.

minSim

06-30-2008, 07:25 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2007

Location: Deventer

Posts: 1,512

I have to admit I'm no expert on the subject, but I think the preflop call is not ever going to be profitable.

I guess as played the flop is fine; it's more of a protection bet, but betting smaller leaves like nothing behind and they're probably bad enough to sometimes call with overs anyway.

will641

06-30-2008, 02:48 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: getting my swell on

Posts: 1,610

i really dont like PF, because if these guys suck, which they probably do with 40bb stacks each, they will probably stack with any pair, and 54s sucks against those types of players.

as played, i like your shove.

Cash Rules Everything Around Me.

dalecooper

06-30-2008, 03:00 PM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

I have no meaningful comment here, but on a related note - yesterday I got a case of the stubborns against a guy with 60 BBs. I raised 54 suited, he 3-bet me enough that I should have folded, but I called - and flopped the joint (236 flop). And he check-raised all in. Mwahahaha.

But I'm pretty sure me and Fnord both shouldn't have seen a flop with our hands.

Irisheyes

06-30-2008, 04:04 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,708

If I'm playing well I'll usually look over at the blinds before I make the raise pre and decide to fold instead.

I like the flop.

|~|ypermegachi

06-30-2008, 04:47 PM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

preflop call is teh suck.
flop bet is teh awesome.

Erpel

07-01-2008, 10:34 AM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2008

Posts: 605

I also think pre-flop is a fold because there's no way 54s gets implieds vs shorties that will have 1.5x pot behind if you call.

Initially I love the flop play. Now I'm not certain. I do think both shorties are most likely to fold and you take down the pot - this alone should make it +EV, though the bet size needed to provoke the folds makes it less so. I don't think any hands you beat will call you though. And I don't think any hands that beat you will fold. I agree any smaller bet size is probably still going to see all the money go in if any of the villains want to play. I'm perfectly willing to discount all pocket pairs due to the flop checks, but that's not the same as ruling them out. I'd guesstimate both villains have premium unpaired paint like AK or AQ as their most likely holdings. It could probably realistically be said that we bet the flop to price out draws, where the draws are probably 6 outs to a higher pair in both cases (some of which discount each other).

The question becomes, is there any bet size that is big enough to price out 5-6 out draws (to better pairs) while being small enough that a bet/fold is correct if either of the villains opts to go all-in? Half pot, $21? In the case of the bigger small stack shoving it would require $40 to call a pot of $124 giving 3 to 1 odds.

It's a strange way of looking at it, because most often I see people manipulating bet sizes to make it correct for themselves to call where my suggestion here is to make it correct for Hero to bet/fold if that is possible.

I don't think there's really a compelling argument for a 1/2 pot b/f line on the flop.

Ok, let's discuss bet/call. The basic idea behind bet/call compared to the current play (which is in effect a shove) is if for metagame reasons it is more likely to either get worse hands to call or better hands to fold. The essence of this question is which play looks more bluffy - shove or PSB? I don't think we'll get better hands to fold, so the question really is if worse hands will call. If we don't require the villains to put in all of their chips they MIGHT call an AK type hand. Maybe PSB is the wrong size for this - maybe $29 or $33 is the right size for a value bet that we want to be called.

Especially the read here is important: "Opponents are both loose, terrible and probably blowing off some money for fun". People who are blowing off money for fun are often reluctant to put in their last chips if they could be left with a stack that they could theoretically rebuild from. By shoving we provoke more folds - if we took a smaller bet size we might be getting worse hands to come along.

Anyway, I'm a noobie, and as said - my initial thought was to dislike the pre-flop call and to love the flop shove.

IowaSkinsFan

07-01-2008, 04:09 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight Flush

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IowaSkinsFan will become famous soon enough

I don't like both pre and flop. I'd just fold pre. I'd just c/f flop.

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