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Some SUPER STANDARD preflop spots this weekend

  
 
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minSim
Old 12-05-2009, 10:03 AM     Post subject: Some SUPER STANDARD preflop spots this weekend #1 (permalink)  
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I'm gonna question some super standard preflop spots to get a feeling how you guys deal with them. They're definately related, but somewhat different in action, betsizing, actual hands and relative position.

It comes from both a feeling and HM analyses that I'm too often only bluffcatching with non-Ax broadways when calling out of the blinds and therefor leaking money with them.


hand 1
UTG raiser is playing 18/16/5, cbet of 63 over 200 hands.
Caller is a shortstack fish playing 60/25 or so.

Do you call and if so what your flop plan?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($18)
Button ($52.60)
Hero (SB) ($54)
BB ($52.25)
UTG ($50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 10, K

UTG bets $1.50, MP calls $1.50, Hero?


hand 2
Limper is unknown. Raiser is playing 24/20/inf, cbet 100 over 80 hands.
Do you call? What's your flop plan?
Do you consider 3betting?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($10)
UTG ($102.90)
MP ($58.80)
CO ($50)
Button ($19.95)
Hero (SB) ($50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, K
UTG calls $0.50, MP bets $2.50, Hero ?


hand 3
UTG raiser 36/20/3.5 over 30h, caller is a TAG. Both have folded 1 out of 1 to a 3bet.
Would you sqeeuze here? If not what's the worst hand you'd squeeze?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($114.30)
MP ($50)
CO ($53.25)
Button ($50)
Hero (SB) ($50.75)
BB ($55.55)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9, 8
UTG bets $1.75, 1 fold, CO calls $1.75, Hero ?
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Carroters
Old 12-05-2009, 01:59 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 1. I'm folding here, the odds don't ccount for being way oop with a dominated hand and no real oppertunities to make moves post flop.

2. I think 3 betting is good because his calling range shouldn't include many hands that dominate us. If we can expect him to be 4-betting (QQ-AA AK) most of the time then we'll be in decent shape post flop should he call. We also fold out a bunch of pairs and stuff like AJ AT with the 3-bet and pick up the pot a good amount of the time with a c-bet when called on some flops.

3. Fold. I'm not realy wanting to squeeze oop vs an utg range of a player who looks like he likes to play a lot of pots and likely not fold very much. I probably wouldn't have a bluff squeezing range in this spot until I saw over a better sample that he could fold to 3-bets. If he has a high ATS I'm even less likely to want to mess about here.

 
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minSim
Old 12-05-2009, 03:04 PM #3 (permalink)  
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what's your calling range on 1 and 3 Carroters?
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Carroters
Old 12-05-2009, 03:33 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 Hmm..

1. 22-JJ 56s+ 86s+ ATs, AJo, AQo, KQo. I'm looking mainly for stuff that has good implied odds here and hands that I can stack the fish with when I flop top pair. I'm really only 3-betting for value.

3. Quite similar - again fairly wide with hands like pairs and SCs but I'm happier folding stuff like AJo, KQo now since we aren't going to flop better top pairs very often with them.

 
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griffey24
Old 12-05-2009, 03:40 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1 - foldd

Hand 2 - probably 3bet, but with reads that UTG is a whale I'm more likely to flat

Hand 3 - If TAG caller has a reasonably 3bet, then I might squeeze here since UTG is wide (unless he's likely to 4bet bluff). If TAG has a low 3bet, then he can be flatting a wide range of strong hands vs UTG open.. so fold. In either case, folding is definitely standard.
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minSim
Old 12-05-2009, 03:55 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
Hmm..

1. 22-JJ 56s+ 86s+ ATs, AJo, AQo, KQo. I'm looking mainly for stuff that has good implied odds here and hands that I can stack the fish with when I flop top pair. I'm really only 3-betting for value.

3. Quite similar - again fairly wide with hands like pairs and SCs but I'm happier folding stuff like AJo, KQo now since we aren't going to flop better top pairs very often with them.
Are you sure about this? On 1 - the fish is short so not that many implied odds against him. Also UTG's range is perceived to be tight so AJ/KQ seems very marginal. I also am not too sure about your weaker SC's really.

On 3 - UTG's range is wider compared to hand 1 so AJ/KQ should be MORE of a call than 1 to me.
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Carroters
Old 12-05-2009, 04:09 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 1. The implied odds are mostly not coming from the fish. We're getting a better price in hand one which is why I like to mine cheaply against utg's strong range with the weak SCs etc.

I agree AJ/KQ maybe marginal here, but these are hands that dominate and stack the fish when we flop top pair and utg doesn't have us beat. That's why I open up with that part of my range and elect to call - because we can take the fish's monies since he's prolly flatting like KT KJ QJ and stuff here all the time. It may be marginal though since these hands do put us in shitty spots vs utg's range and yeah the fish is short so this is maybe of less importance.

3. I normally would fold AJ KQ here even to this guy opening utg. His pfr is only 20 which isn't LAGtarded or anything so I wouldn't just flat AJ here normally and expect to have good equity. The reason I call these in 1 and not 3 is because we have a TAG caller in 3 instead of a fish. The TAG isn't flatting worse broadways often here so our hand plays worse multiway vs his range than it does the fish's. Without there being a 3rd player involved, I'm folding AJo in both hands without too much consideration. It's the nature of the 3rd player in these hands that affects the difference in my calling ranges.

 
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Dragon Slayer
Old 12-05-2009, 05:45 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Hand 1 fold I think maybe KJs call and prob 3 bet iso KQs that should dominate the SS fishes range

Hand 2 i think 3 betting here is fine. Really there is good argument for calling or 3 betting or folding. I would imagine this players ISOing range is fairly wide and we can be ahead a decent amount.

Hand 3 is pretty clear fold esp against UTG raising range.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 12-05-2009, 07:18 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 I certainly think folding all 3 is good but I suppose you could 3bet hand 2.

You are in the SB each time right?
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Dex
Old 12-05-2009, 08:13 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Hand 1 I fold and I'm only really looking to call here to set mine and maybe the odd suited ace or connector. Obv this widens if we were ip vs the utg pfr.

Hand 2, does villain always 4x from that position, or 4x over a limp? Flatting would be better if we know the limper will come along and is bad, but if it ends HU on the flop there's gonna be a bunch of decent flops to c/r vs someone who you believe will always cbet and has stats that look like they are decent. If the flop checks through HU, lead any turn where you have decent equity.

3betting is obv simpler and a decent option.

Hand 3 I fold, I don't expect the tag to do much but fold to a 3bet but the pfr seems to want to play a decent amount of hands and being oop w/ 98o in a 3bet pot sucks. He may have folded to the first 3bet but there's a good chance he's going to start wanting to call and play, so I'd prefer to have a hand with more equity here, if you had the KdQd here I'd be more inclined to squeeze but also happy flatting.
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kmind
Old 12-05-2009, 11:34 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I certainly think folding all 3 is good but I suppose you could 3bet hand 2.

You are in the SB each time right?
Could you go deeper in this please? I assume you want to have a tighter range than the PFR but what kind of range would that be? And how much tighter do you go?
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bigspenda73
Old 12-06-2009, 12:00 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 I can't see myself ever calling in any of these spots
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speedcake
Old 12-06-2009, 12:43 AM #13 (permalink)  
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not alot of information to go on in any of these hands.

Hand 1: fold, I don't see you getting the right odds to get involved with a hand that is too easily dominated. the Fish being short makes it an even easier fold.


Hand 2: flat at best I think. you don't want to turn KQs into a bluff here vs the iso raise and flatting makes it easier for the open limper to come along. I don't think folding is a mistake though.


Hand 3: almost always folding. 98s might be closer, but I'm not a big fan of squeezing vs anyone's UTG range.
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Ravageur
Old 12-06-2009, 04:16 AM #14 (permalink)  
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wow, bit surprised by the folding hand 2 responses (u guys could be right but are ppl really folding kq suited oop to a punish by a NON-nit that much rly?I guess I need to punish a hell of a lot more then. I don't think i'm folding 1 or 2 very often, never hand 2 and sometimes hand 1 which i'd fold if the shorty hadn't called. 3 is a fold though. 3-betting just seems to depend on table dynamics as much as ranges though 3-betting hand 2 just seems better than 3-betting hand 1 for the simple reason that you can play top pair more profitably than hand 1 for stacks in a rr pot + all the better straight draws.

hand 1 postflop i'm leading some gutshots and c/callign a lot of gutshot + backdoor fds and leading the odd top pair (a 10 moreso than a k). I'm also gonna bet-3bet some fds here sometimes as well as c/call them. Leading in these spots imo is better than leading in a HU pot because you will get a bit more credit (especially since there's a bad shortstacker who is going to be putting his stack in light behind the original pf).
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Alexos
Old 12-06-2009, 05:13 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 1 & 3 aren't close at all for me - clear fold
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nutsinho
Old 12-06-2009, 08:22 AM #16 (permalink)  
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 i think calling and folding is close in h1 and in h2 all 3 options seem about the same

hand 3 i dont get it, why would you want to 3bet?
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Pelion
Old 12-06-2009, 02:16 PM #17 (permalink)  
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1 and 3 are really easy folds for me.

2 I think hes likely iso-ing a pretty wide range, so you can probably call or 3 bet profitably. Personally Id 3bet from oop.
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minSim
Old 12-07-2009, 07:08 AM #18 (permalink)  
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(ISF- I'm in the SB in each yeah)

I was questioning sqeeuzing in hand 3 as I think a lot of players call SC hands and that leaves a lot of 'value' type hands in our sqeeuzing range (like AJo+ max or something) and basically no trash hands. I was wondering if anybody is throwing in a random trash hand here and there.
But it seems no one does.
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Old 12-07-2009, 09:27 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravageur
I don't think i'm folding 1 or 2 very often, never hand 2 and sometimes hand 1 which i'd fold if the shorty hadn't called.
i think a huge problem with squeezing hand 1 is the shorty's stack size. if we 3b to like 6.50-7, and he shoves, then we have to crying call (we need 33% equity and stove gives me 37% equity vs the most plausible range for him backraise shoving).
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gabe
Old 12-07-2009, 10:06 PM #20 (permalink)  
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i call the first 2 and fold the last one. if i have reasons i can do any of the options though with all 3
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Renton
Old 12-09-2009, 02:18 PM #21 (permalink)  
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 meh call, easy call, fold
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