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Sizing PF raises (split off)

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zenbitz

11-29-2006, 08:02 PM Post subject: Sizing PF raises (split off)

#1 (permalink)

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Quote:

It seems like 2 conflicting principles to me and theyere probably worthy of a whole knew thread.

Quote:

ok you got one

UTG

a) Raise big = Reduced implied odds + hopefully reduced number of villains OOP = goot
b) Raise big = big pot OOP = ewwwww

LP

a) Raise big = big pot in position = naice
b) Raise small = let players in when you have a nice hand + position = ....naice.

Ok so whats it to be? Or is this one of those moments in poker where we cant win? The early position guideliness seem espectially confuddled to me and Ive never been able to balence them myself.[/quote]

To summarize: NLT&P advocates raising "bigger" in EP, Fnord has been going with 3x (which I guess is smallish) UTG.

First comment by me: EP in NLT&P (or HOH for that matter) is not 6max UTG, I think. It's more MP. Still the principle remains.

It's also (according to both books) supposed to be good to vary your raises depending on your holdings - but I found this part not very transparent. The calling/re-raising tendencies/post flop play/stacks sizes of your opponents (and you) is also critical.

So, gabe likes to keep his raises small: why? because he makes many of them, with all sorts of hands, and gets re-raised frequently. He also (from reading his HHs) likes to get allot of money in on the flop with overbets/raises so he doesn't really need a big pot on the flop.

I have been screwing around with raise sizes but I am almost always at 3x or 4x (50NL). Every once in a while I throw in a 2x somewhere when I don't mind a multi-way pot. Of course, then I get raised out of the blinds and feel like a doofus.

Assuming 100BB effective stacks, although 50 seems a little more common:
Do peeople ever open with big raises PF? 6-10X? With what? Pairs?

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Fnord

11-29-2006, 09:41 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

I shall reply to your question with more questions in an effort to confuse you.

Given the current NL100 or 200 game.

Assume we're UTG.

Does a 3x vs 4x opener really have much effect on the sort of hands the field is playing cold?

If we are re-raised would we have rather raised to 3x or 4x?

If we are called once (by someone with position) would we have rather raised to 3x or 4x?

If we're called multiple times, would we have rather raised 3x or 4x?

Are the blinds worth more or less than the value of the typical hand we're raising?

Is the BB calling a wider range if we raise to 3x vs 4x? (I think this is a very strong yes) Given how a loose call plays against a top 15% UTG range, is this call by all but the strongest players in the field a mistake? A big mistake or a small one?

Then re-visit those questions with 4x vs 5x; 6x.

Finally:
I open to 3x from UTG. I will do this with my top 15% of hands.

You call from the BB without looking.

I then offer to sell you the button for 1bb.

Should you take me up on the offer?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Renton

11-29-2006, 11:29 PM

#3 (permalink)

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4x with deepstacks generally has a better chance of creating a headsup pot (usually with position, assuming this is a 6max game). Thats reason enough to raise 4x imo.

elipsesjeff

11-29-2006, 11:36 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

4x with deepstacks generally has a better chance of creating a headsup pot (usually with position, assuming this is a 6max game). Thats reason enough to raise 4x imo.

How many players are not folding because "OMG he raised to 4x not 3x"?

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Renton

11-29-2006, 11:41 PM

#5 (permalink)

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i know i treat 3x differently. 33:1 shot at someones stack is better than 25:1. Its mostly subconscious/psychological though.

However, I think in the BB most people treat 3x differently than 4x. With 3x you are definitely getting more compelling odds to defend.

Renton

11-29-2006, 11:44 PM

#6 (permalink)

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also don't forget that the 4x raise is going to make a pot that is 33% bigger on the river

big heads up pots with position are a good thing.

Fnord

11-29-2006, 11:47 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

4x with deepstacks generally has a better chance of creating a headsup pot (usually with position)

I disagree with the position part and we've started to cover how much 3x vs 4x effects the play vs fold decisions of the most of the field (it doesn't much.)

Guys playing 4+ tables just see the reasonable opener from a reasonable player and will play the hands they want to play.

The table sucker will play too many hands anyway. There might be a case to raise less in order to get him into the pot against our best hands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

also don't forget that the 4x raise is going to make a pot that is 33% bigger on the river

big heads up pots with position are a good thing.

We will only have position if and only if it's folded to the blinds and they call.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Renton

11-29-2006, 11:52 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

also don't forget that the 4x raise is going to make a pot that is 33% bigger on the river

big heads up pots with position are a good thing.

We will only have position if and only if it's folded to the blinds and they call.

this is the most common scenario

Fnord

11-29-2006, 11:54 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

this is the most common scenario

Not in my experience.

Put HJ, CO and BN on a play range. How often do we fold to the blinds?

How often are we pricing out the blinds from a bad call by opening for 4x vs 3x? Multi-tablers are MUCH tighter here than live players.

Finally, the larger of a bet we open for, the less correct calling becomes and the more correct re-raising becomes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Iwind

11-30-2006, 12:09 AM

#10 (permalink)

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I like 3x, gives room for a little more postflop play and cheaper when I have to fold to a 3-bet, wich happens quite a lot. When playing quite loose and raising a lot I think 3x works the best, people don't really have too good implied odds anyways, since my range is so wide. For tighter players 4x might be better. From SB I raise 4x with a resonable hand, else I find BB calls with a too wide range. My 3-bets are usually 3.5x. This is what I've been doing lately at least.

Fnord

11-30-2006, 12:36 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Iwind

From SB I raise 4x with a resonable hand, else I find BB calls with a too wide range.

Lets keep the subject on UTG.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Jager

11-30-2006, 01:57 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Fnord the do you raise 4x from all other positions?

"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."

Fnord

11-30-2006, 01:59 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jager

Fnord the do you raise 4x from all other positions?

Lets solve the UTG problem and carry forward our results into thinking about other positions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Warpe

11-30-2006, 02:10 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Does a 3x vs 4x opener really have much effect on the sort of hands the field is playing cold?

If the table standard is 3.5x<5x (typical on FT), my experience has been that we get too many callers if we scale back to 3x (I've been experimenting since this thread started). It gets about as much respect as a minraise at some tables.

The question is: Is this a bad thing?

zenbitz

11-30-2006, 11:28 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

I shall reply to your question with more questions in an effort to confuse you.

You cannot confuse someone who is already ignorant...but I am can barely play 50NL , so YMMV

Quote:

Given the current NL100 or 200 game.

Assume we're UTG.

Does a 3x vs 4x opener really have much effect on the sort of hands the field is playing cold?

It depends!
For players outside the blinds - certainly not.
For players in the BB - I think yes, we will get more calls with worse hands.
Oh, you say this below.

Quote:

If we are re-raised would we have rather raised to 3x or 4x?
If we are called once (by someone with position) would we have rather raised to 3x or 4x?
If we're called multiple times, would we have rather raised 3x or 4x?

I think here is where the difference between 3x and 4x matters. Vs blinds only 3x is clearly better - and what makes the difference is our hand.

Quote:

Are the blinds worth more or less than the value of the typical hand we're raising?

Last time I reviewed some 6m hands I was a total laggtard, so in my case, yes.
But typically, I think our hands should be worth more given implied odds.

Quote:

I open to 3x from UTG. I will do this with my top 15% of hands.

You call from the BB without looking.

I then offer to sell you the button for 1bb.

Should you take me up on the offer?

Hmmm... shouldn't I check in the dark? I am having trouble with the math here... leading me to conclude that 1BB in a pot of 6.5 is about what the button is worth. Maybe I am way off though.

Fnord

11-30-2006, 11:54 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by zenbitz

Hmmm... shouldn't I check in the dark?

Checking in the dark doesn't nullify much of the positional disadvantage.

The button can still check behind (medicore players don't do this nearly often enough) and you're still 2nd to act on the turn or river if there is action left.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

zenbitz

12-01-2006, 02:57 AM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

I think here is where the difference between 3x and 4x matters. Vs blinds only 3x is clearly better - and what makes the difference is our hand.

Quoting myself, but I meant to clarify before work jumped me.

With what holdings should we raise more or less?

Blanket disclaimer: We obviously should not telegraph, so all these should be 80/20 or something (where the 20% is a different raise size). At 6m, we can pretty much rule out limping (except maybe as short stack or on a very passive table). Also, I am just theorizing because it helps me think about this stuff, please critique)

I do think that all pairs should probably be a big raise (4x+), even UTG. You blow the blinds out maybe, but you reduce the chance of getting re-raised, and create a bigger pot if you hit your set. Exception might be QQ (maybe KK+) on an agressive table, when you want a re-raise.
The other reason to raiser bigger here is that (absent set-and-forget) you don't want to go multiway.

Maybe robust hands should have bigger PFRs? AQ-ATo (or worse!) should probably raise 3x for sure, since you would dump them to a (tight) re-raise.

Dang. Fnord didn't confuse me, but I confused myself.

Pelion

12-01-2006, 03:33 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by zenbitz

I do think that all pairs should probably be a big raise (4x+), even UTG. You blow the blinds out maybe, but you reduce the chance of getting re-raised, and create a bigger pot if you hit your set.

Provided you are against players who will only reraise big hands (that they will often go broke with in an unraised pot), then you dont mind being reraised AS LONG as stacks are deep enough that you still have implied odds to call with 44 or 67s or whatever you raised.

If you raise 4x with 44 EP and someone with AA reraises to 12x then you only have to call 8 more to (hopefully) take 100BB 1 every 9 times (or so).

So you lose 8 x 8BB and win 1 x 104BB for 40BB profit. EV = +4BB per hand or so. If you then add the times you take the blinds with or without a cbet its quite a nice play and 4BB seems like a nice raise size. The problem comes when you start getting reraised/ floated with weaker hands but I dont particularly think that happens less just because your raises are bigger.

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Lukie

12-01-2006, 04:10 PM

#19 (permalink)

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pelion you're reasoning and math is so wrong on so many different levels that it amazes me. I apologize if this comes off as rude. I may come back to elaborate further if nobody does before then.

gabe

12-01-2006, 04:17 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

pelion you're reasoning and math is so wrong on so many different levels that it amazes me. I apologize if this comes off as rude. I may come back to elaborate further if nobody does before then.

this should be interesting

Warpe

12-01-2006, 04:29 PM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelion

If you raise 4x with 44 EP and someone with AA reraises to 12x then you only have to call 8 more to (hopefully) take 100BB 1 every 9 times (or so).

You're not going to get your opponent's stack every time you hit a set.

Lukie

12-01-2006, 07:26 PM

#22 (permalink)

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its also always interesting that despite how the games are filling up with people who 3-bet a LOT, that we can put somebody on aces every time, get it allin every time, and win the pot every time (hint, sometimes they will flop, turn, or river an overset. this happens more then one might expect-- figure they will flop an overset 1/12 of the time you flop a set, and even if they don't, they always have at least the 2 god outs which are good for about 8% equity, not counting any thing like gutshots, backdoor draws, etc.

Fnord

12-01-2006, 07:27 PM

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The Plus Ten raise is pretty popular too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

benny999

12-07-2006, 08:52 PM

#24 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Does a 3x vs 4x opener really have much effect on the sort of hands the field is playing cold?

Fnord, or anyone else with experience raising 3x vs 4x, can you answer that based on your experience? Is it rare that anyone calls more hands (outside blinds) with a 3x than a 4x?

Chopper

12-07-2006, 09:00 PM

#25 (permalink)

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i know this is a 50-200 NL thread question, but when at 25 and lower, do you feel the range is more like 4x-6x? meaning 4x (more like standard 3x) and 6x (like a standard 4x)?

i find at lower levels, you need to raise bigger pf to "thin the field" because people will call with anything reasonable...jmo.

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b-rabbit

12-07-2006, 09:58 PM

#26 (permalink)

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anytime i feel like raising UTG, i just fold.

do the right thing.

Miffed22001

12-08-2006, 11:11 AM

#27 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

1. No. Cold calls will come from the set hunters, regardless of the pfr opener (perhaps 6x may inhibit some from calling; i doubt it though)

2. If reraised id prefer to have made a 3x raise (dumb?) That makes the pot relativy small on the flop (say opp reraises to 9bbs, making flop pot 18bbs~ versus a 24bbs flop pot with 4x. I have half my stack in if i cbet/call a bet into the 24bbs pot, but only a third in the 18bbs pot, which gives me plenty of room to fold a lukewarm hand in a reraised pot if opp 2 barrels the turn with air/better hand)
Im either a million miles from the point or this seems important here? Preflop reraising ranges suggest i want to take a cheaper flop here with say AQ/AK to see if i can outflop a reraising range or i want to open bigger with a big hand that doesnt mind a reraise (like KK)

3. If im called by a player in position with my typical UTG range (pps + big broadways) id prefer a 4x raise, im killing his range right...? (this seems contrary to the point in 1 where we know cold callers are going to call cold with pps and set hunt without noticing the pfr, hence how do we see the difference here?)

4. Depends. Depends much on what hand im holding here, i dont like a multiway pot with AQo, i might with AQs i certainly do with 44 (implied odds rule here surely in a multiway pot)

5. blinds are worth less than my UTG range. (i would expect)

6. agreed. BB will play a horrible range against our 15% from utg. Do we go as far to decide here that depending on the characteristics of out sb/bb players depends upon the amount we might open UTG with a hand like AJ/AQo and AA, but not say 99/JJ?

7. Assuming you are a player of equal or worse quality than me, i buy the button each time for 1bbs if offered. Other than that, im not sure.

Is this simply a question of i open for less money when my hand wants to showdown a lot, and more when my hand wants to build a pot and be all in on a big street like the turn if it hits...?

Warpe

12-08-2006, 08:55 PM

#28 (permalink)

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What's the best preflop raise size from the button, if we're folded to?

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