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Marshall28
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07-11-2008, 01:55 AM
Post subject: Sick tough spot 200bb deep 200NL
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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There was a hand leading up to this one that made this decision so tough. My opponent is running 11/10/3 over a decent sample, I was running 22/18, this hand happened roughly 1 rotation prior.....
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
saw flop|saw showdown
MP ($393.05)
CO ($252.10)
Button ($199.55)
SB ($200)
Hero ($200)
UTG ($431)
Preflop: Hero is BB with Q , J .
1 fold, MP raises to $7, CO calls $7, Button calls $7, 1 fold, Hero raises to $36, MP folds, CO folds, Button raises to $65, Hero raises to $200 (All-In), Button calls $134.55 (All-In).
Flop: ($414.55) 3 , 4, J (2 players, 2 all-in)
Turn: ($414.55) 7 (2 players, 2 all-in)
River: ($414.55) 3 (2 players, 2 all-in)
Final Pot: $414.10
Results in white below:
Hero has Qs Jh (two pair, jacks and threes).
Button has 5d 5c (two pair, fives and threes).
Outcome: Hero wins $414.54.
basically the whole table started saying I was insane and/or crazy/out of my mind, most notably villain in the following hand...
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
saw flop|saw showdown
SB ($406.65)
BB ($232.10)
UTG ($185.80)
MP ($200)
Hero ($411.80)
Button ($425)
Preflop: Hero is CO with A, K.
1 fold, Hero raises to $7, Button raises to $24, 2 folds, Hero raises to $68, Button raises to $160
Question is ... yeah I realize hes tight, and that first hand, though I think it was standard, because basically the whole table was talking about me being nuts, I felt like my image was ridiculous at that point, do you think that's enough to justify 4betting and getting it in?
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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it seems like u shouldnt 4bet if its going to be to fold to a 5bet even though hes pretty nitty. id prolly go ahead and not fold
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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i agree that if i 4bet i shouldnt fold to a 5bet, but if it is a fold, i probably shouldnt be 4betting ... in which case how do i play the hand? whats my plan?
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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lol wtf
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nest of Douchebags
Posts: 2,184
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plz stay at 200nl, i'll be there soon
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LOL OPERATIONS
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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id plan to try to flop a pair and not fold it or maybe check call the flop on blankish flops if he sucks at putting on the pressure in position without the goods.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigred
plz stay at 200nl, i'll be there soon
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Better watch what you wish for...
Marshall28's approach to the game isn't my prefered style, but you got to have a lot of gamble to play with him for a sum of money that's important to you.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Hand 1
- your opponent is running 11/10 and you decide to a) 3-bet him with a marginal hand like QJ in the first place, which fine I can accept since its a squeeze BUTTT... b) 5-bet JAM over a nits 4-bet??
I think squeezing is ok, but 5-bet jamming versus a mega nit must be complete spew. Even worse is that since you're squeezing and you clearly think he's re-stealing, that he could be 4-betting somewhat lighter to include more hands that dominate you (AQs/AJs).
I just think its kind of unnecessary against a mega nit really.
Hand 2
-Even though AKs is a great hand, it's prob not the best for getting it in 200bb's deep. I feel like in these kind of spots, even though your image is soo spewy, ppl are still just sitting back and waiting till they know they have you to play at you... especially this deep.
-I prefer a flat of the 3-bet and re-evaluate postflop.
-I think its more of a "omg.. this guy is such a maniac... please give me a solid hand to stack himmmm pleaseee... " kinda moment than a "omg.. this guy is such a maniac... I have 99... I'll stack for 200bb's since its prob still ahead of his range" moments.
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reprisal
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 106
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He can easily be doing this w/ almost anything he 3-bet which means your still in pretty good shape. But its still really gross, 4-betting seems like it is just begging for him to put us to the test w/ these stacks & we dont know how lightly he'll throw in 200BB. Being OOP sucks, but I think were better off calling the 3-bet & playing poker even tho thats going to be tough.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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dude this is mega standard given first hand. either keep it a 3bet pot or get it in pf.
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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personally I'd prefer to keep it a 3 bet pot but I don't think felting here is that bad given history.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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big red : lets do it
fnord : appreciated
griffey : think i explained it poorly or u misunderstood. i was talkign about villain in the AKs pot who was an 11/10. when i had QJ that player was like a 50/8. jam there super standard for sure.
im really thinking flatting the 3bet is going to give me a reverse implied odds situation unless i can make a flush. but i dunno, its a really weird spot
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marshall28
when i had QJ that player was like a 50/8. jam there super standard for sure.
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Plus back raises are generally something retarded. Not sure I'd go with QJ, but it's not like he's going to show up with QQ+ very often.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Is a back raise the call/raise line?
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Just playing to improve.
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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Why did everyone go mad over this, both hands look fine...?
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
Is a back raise the call/raise line?
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Yes.
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
Why did everyone go mad over this, both hands look fine...?
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I have a lot of gamble in me and i push my equity in a lot of marginal spots. People hate cuz its unorthodox. Its another reason why I rarely post questions about hands I play.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marshall28
griffey : think i explained it poorly or u misunderstood. i was talkign about villain in the AKs pot who was an 11/10. when i had QJ that player was like a 50/8. jam there super standard for sure.
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Yep my bad, thought he was 11/10! ok against a 50/8 then this is fine in first hand.
But in second hand vs a 11/10, I definitely think this is the type of person that isn't gonna necessarily widen his value range against you, but instead really try to punish you when he gets a hand.
He's assuming that you're gonna go with any hand, so he just wants to make sure he has a hand he's confident with pretty much. That being said, he probably IS gonna go with QQ/JJ so getting it in pre isn't terrible at all. I just wouldn't expect to see AQ, or worse than JJ here ever, and lots of KK/AA (despite your play in first hand).
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I'd probably just not threebet pre. People are pussies deep, and we're OOP. I feel we are turning our hand into a bluff.
As played I'd get it in too.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I'd probably just not threebet pre. People are pussies deep, and we're OOP. I feel we are turning our hand into a bluff.
As played I'd get it in too.
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I agree. Also, I've stopped trusting 11/10's to change up their game for a player like you're suspecting he is. They just seem have a knack for showing up with the nuts whenever you think they'd be making a play.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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woah woah woah villain is different in both hands? latter hand is an 11/10 that was not villain in first hand?
in that case you dont wanna play for stacks in latter hand
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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In hand two check to see if villain is playing like 8+ tables. If so he probably didn't even notice the previous hand and your image means jack crap to him.
Also, if he is that attentive, he won't think your previous play was so bad if he also knows the villain was 58/10 or whatever.
Either way, I'd keep it a 3-bet pot... as played, get it all in pf and put an iron cup on your BR, cause its prolly gonna take a big hit in the sac.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Outlaw
In hand two check to see if villain is playing like 8+ tables. If so he probably didn't even notice the previous hand and your image means jack crap to him.
Also, if he is that attentive, he won't think your previous play was so bad if he also knows the villain was 58/10 or whatever.
Either way, I'd keep it a 3-bet pot... as played, get it all in pf and put an iron cup on your BR, cause its prolly gonna take a big hit in the sac.
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OP said that villain in hand 2 was berating him for how crazy he was with his QJ hand etc etc, so he's aware of the image.. but I still don't think that means his range is wider necessarily.
100bb's i'd say his range is for sure wider.. 200bb's not sure.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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i posted the same hand on liquidpoker and have gotten basically the same advice. just like u said griffey, its unlikely an 11/10 is goign to change his game based on a dynamic he observed, even if he commented on it, ESPECIALLY 200bb deep. Basically everyone has said to call his 3bet and play a pot.
ISF: you said "I'd probably just not 3bet pre, people are pussies deep" .... I think you meant 4bet? however ... if people are pussies, shouldn't I be 4betting more often deep (especially OOP)? its not like my hand is that deceptive or has that much inherent strength on most flops, particularly if I'm already crushed.
or did you mean something else?
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marshall28
ISF: you said "I'd probably just not 3bet pre, people are pussies deep" .... I think you meant 4bet? however ... if people are pussies, shouldn't I be 4betting more often deep (especially OOP)? its not like my hand is that deceptive or has that much inherent strength on most flops, particularly if I'm already crushed.
or did you mean something else?
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When I quoted him I thought he said 4-bet too. You shouldn't use the fact people are pussies deep as an excuse to 4-bet this guy more though. His stats indicate he's already a pussy (no offense nits!) and the deep stacks make him even more so. Meaning he's very very rarely 3-betting with a hand he doesn't want to stack off with preflop.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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good point, galapagos, i think youre right.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marshall28
i posted the same hand on liquidpoker and have gotten basically the same advice. just like u said griffey, its unlikely an 11/10 is goign to change his game based on a dynamic he observed, even if he commented on it, ESPECIALLY 200bb deep. Basically everyone has said to call his 3bet and play a pot.
ISF: you said "I'd probably just not 3bet pre, people are pussies deep" .... I think you meant 4bet? however ... if people are pussies, shouldn't I be 4betting more often deep (especially OOP)? its not like my hand is that deceptive or has that much inherent strength on most flops, particularly if I'm already crushed.
or did you mean something else?
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Oops, yeah I meant fourbet.
You should fourbet often here if you feel like you are getting threebet at all light, but if the only thing calling your 4 bet or shoving are like QQ+ at the tightest, and likely AK/JJ+ at the loosest, your hand seems to have much more equity when calling the threebet.
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