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|~|ypermegachi

07-17-2008, 03:56 PM Post subject: shove or fold?

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

1/2 6max
hero has $108.
villain covers.

folded to SB with

, Hero raises to $6, BB calls.

not many hands on BB, 50 hands on him has him at 16/11/2.

flop is

(pot = $12)
hero bets $8, villain raises to $16, hero calls.

turn

(pot = $44)
hero checks, villain bets $35, shove or fold ($86 behind)?

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Pythonic

07-17-2008, 04:10 PM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

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Really hate these hands when you are OOP. I say FOLD.

Never bet on a white man in the heavyweight division!

minSim

07-17-2008, 04:23 PM

#3 (permalink)

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shove

Fnord

07-17-2008, 04:48 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Donk the turn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

sweetlemon69

07-17-2008, 05:38 PM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

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sweetlemon69 is an unknown quantity at this point

by donk the turn, do you mean CRAI?

freechus9

07-17-2008, 05:49 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetlemon69

by donk the turn, do you mean CRAI?

Donk is short for donk-lead, which means that the non-aggressor bets first OOP.

My sig is too much for you to handle.

|~|ypermegachi

07-17-2008, 09:00 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Donk the turn.

donk/fold or donk/call?

Fnord

07-17-2008, 09:05 PM

#8 (permalink)

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I'm never folding here. If you can show me a better hand, good for you and I hope that I suck out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Deanglow

07-17-2008, 09:26 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Definitely shove as played. Donking the turn isn't bad and anyway you get it in is fine

fisherman

07-17-2008, 11:33 PM

#10 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 49

Forgive me for being a noobie donkey and all that but I don't see how we can really shove or call this. Being a 16/11 defending his BB to a SB raise KQ, KJ, TT and maybe K9/8 are definitely in his range, not to mention various flush possibilites like QJs, QTs and other SCs. AK is prob in his 3bet range so I would not put him on that (plus the fact that you hold AA makes it even less likely).

The MR on the flop to me indicates one of two things: a monster or a draw. We are now in bad shape against both on the turn.

If we shove then the pot is $165 and it is only $51 for villain to call so he is getting better than 3:1 which, along with his lead, indicates that he is not folding to a shove because he is committing himself to the pot.

Furthermore, what hands are we ahead of here? AT? QT? It seems we are behind way more than we are behind, and although we have a redraw to the NF it is only a 4.1:1 shot if he doesn't have the flush or 5.6:1 if he does. And even if we hit we may be beaten already by a FH. I just think it's bad to shove when you suspect you're behind thinking 'o well I always have the redraw'. It's a dangerous train of thought

So in conclusion I dump it and wait for a better opportunity to get my money in. Call me weak-tight but...meh

Fnord

07-18-2008, 12:35 AM

#11 (permalink)

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That is why I keep track of stuff other than just chow/meow

That said, it's blind vs blind and widening our range of felting hands to AcA on this turn is a reasonable adjustment to what we expect to be a broader range from our opponent.

If you really think he's tight post-flop, then c/c turn c/fold the river with a call option depending on timing/sizing.

edit: For example, if his fold to steal is like 90% over 500 hands, I'm definatly check/calling the turn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

IowaSkinsFan

07-18-2008, 01:52 AM

#12 (permalink)

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I'm thinking the best way to play this hand is to check the flop and it has nothing to do with the fact that you got raised here.

Check out the new blog!!!

Fnord

07-18-2008, 02:00 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I'm thinking the best way to play this hand is to check the flop and it has nothing to do with the fact that you got raised here.

I like it when people raise a flop bet here. AA is a hand I'm looking them up with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

|~|ypermegachi

07-18-2008, 02:01 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I'm thinking the best way to play this hand is to check the flop and it has nothing to do with the fact that you got raised here.

one of the leaks is cbetting too much. if you don't mind if u add a little more insight it would help me a lot.

are you advocating that we c/r the flop or c/c for pot control and go from there?

Fnord

07-18-2008, 02:07 AM

#15 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

one of the leaks is cbetting too much.

Why do you feel this way? What does PT say your c-bet flop % is? Correct or not, you'll find yourself in a spot like this so rarely, if you're c-betting too much this isn't the place to start adjusting. Heck, it might be one of those things where the more often you c-bet the more inclined you should be to c-bet here if your opponennt is playing fewer than 4 tables.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

|~|ypermegachi

07-18-2008, 03:15 AM

#16 (permalink)

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the past 1000 hands my cbet stat is 82%, which is definitely on the high side. my c/r % is also 0. i'm trying to find more places to c/r instead of (donk)betting.

minSim

07-18-2008, 07:21 AM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

one of the leaks is cbetting too much.

Not intending to hijack Hyper's thread, but mine is about 60% (not included raises and donk calls and stuff), which feels like not enough. At least compared to others....and it comes with a WWSF of less that 40%...which seems like my real problem.

So I'm guessing I should actually start cbetting more. I do things like checking behind with Ax sometimes because I think only worse hands fold, and quite some c/-ing OOP and stuff.....in a vacuum that doesn't seem so bad, but in the end I think is.
Combining that with trying to play more hands (just widening my opening standards) seems and shows to be kinda bad.

I actually think going to an extreme and cbetting every flop, except the veryveryvery bad ones would do me good. Especially if my opponents sometimes are able to do some next level thinking (like "he won't be cbetting this bad flop so he has to have a hand, I fold").

Any tips on my situation/thoughts? I'm at 50NL, if it matters.

Fnord

07-18-2008, 02:21 PM

#18 (permalink)

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55% c-bet over my last 11.5k hands.

That said, I changed my approach to the game. I open for 3x and depend less on c-bets for profit.

Some of my mix-up/induce hands:

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($280.20)
Hero ($220.20)
CO ($200.00)
BTN ($104.85)
SB ($119.30)
BB ($236.70)

Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1

1 fold, Hero raises to $6, CO calls $6, 3 folds

Flop:

($15, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $10, Hero calls $10

Turn:

($35, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

River:

($35, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $20, Hero calls $20

Final Pot: $75
Hero shows:

CO shows:

Hero wins $72 ( won +$36 )
CO lost -$36.00

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($197.00)
UTG+1 ($165.30)
CO ($91.20)
Hero ($229.95)
SB ($271.90)
BB ($246.45)

Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is BTN

3 folds, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, BB calls $4

Flop:

($13, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn:

($13, 2 players)
BB bets $8, Hero calls $8

River:

($29, 2 players)
BB bets $12, Hero calls $12

Final Pot: $53
Hero shows:

BB shows:

Hero wins $50.45 ( won +$24.45 )
BB lost -$26.00

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
Hero ($203.00)
CO ($110.45)
BTN ($64.45)
SB ($64.30)
BB ($278.55)

Pre-flop: ($3, 5 players) Hero is UTG

Hero raises to $6, CO calls $6, 3 folds

Flop:

($15, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn:

($15, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $6, Hero calls $6

River:

($27, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $12, Hero calls $12

Final Pot: $51
Hero shows:

CO shows:

Hero wins $49 ( won +$25 )
CO lost -$24.00

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($318.65)
UTG+1 ($272.00)
Hero ($368.20)
BTN ($118.15)
SB ($201.00)
BB ($91.75)

Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is CO

2 folds, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, SB calls $5, 1 fold

Flop:

($14, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn:

($14, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River:

($14, 2 players)
SB bets $10, Hero raises to $30, SB calls $20

Final Pot: $74
Hero shows:

SB shows:

Hero wins $71 ( won +$35 )
SB lost -$36.00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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