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Shortstacking 20bb's - discuss

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noble007

12-23-2006, 12:42 PM Post subject: Shortstacking 20bb's - discuss

#1 (permalink)

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I know there are a lot of arguments against it, but ignoring those for the time being what changes would you make to your strategy if you were trying to apply shortstacking.

(For myself I am currently raising my regular 6 max hands incl. more pp's (+-5 bb), I almost always c bet(90% of the time 40-80% of the pot) & am often pot commited at that point.)

I am having a lot of success with it at the moment, just looking for ways to improve it.

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euphoricism

12-23-2006, 06:43 PM

#2 (permalink)

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I love shortstacking. Its incredibly easy to get half-stacks repeatedly with TPTK. But, you do need to count on hitting top pair top kicker pretty often

CBetting anything youre willing to put your stack on is a good way to go.

Draws are worthless, your implied odds are almost never there. This killed me. I almost never got my 5:1 implied odds and I went for my flushdraws and straightdraws anyway. Gotta be careful there. Repeat

I started limping pocketpairs, because especially 20bb deep you just dont the odds otherwise. PPs really lose value shortstacked, and really gain value fullstacked.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
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euphoricism

12-23-2006, 06:55 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Oh, and dont buyin for even amounts. Like at 50NL dont buy in for $20 or $25. I like $23.72 myself.

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kmind

12-23-2006, 06:56 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Oh, and dont buyin for even amounts. Like at 50NL dont buy in for $20 or $25. I like $23.72 myself.

Makes it look like you are on tilt and this is the last of your BR?

euphoricism

12-23-2006, 06:58 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Exactly.

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to euphoricism [Ah Qc]
Munterpipe: folds
JackJack22: raises $0.75 to $1
ipoplls: folds
A010A: raises $2.50 to $3.50
euphoricism: raises $7.75 to $11.25 and is all-in
capt.janni: folds
JackJack22: folds
A010A: calls $7.75
*** FLOP *** [4c 6h 6c]
*** TURN *** [4c 6h 6c] [5h]
*** RIVER *** [4c 6h 6c 5h] [2c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
euphoricism: shows [Ah Qc] (a pair of Sixes)
A010A: mucks hand

clark52: posts small blind $0.10
pegs13: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to euphoricism [Js As]
KyleBiggs84: folds
KyleBiggs84 said, "gl ev1"
KyleBiggs84 leaves the table
Saf Dude: calls $0.25
withnosoul: folds
euphoricism: raises $1 to $1.25
clark52: folds
pegs13: folds
Saf Dude: calls $1
*** FLOP *** [Jh 2c 3c]
Saf Dude: checks
euphoricism: bets $10.05 and is all-in
Saf Dude: calls $9.15 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [Jh 2c 3c] [5c]
*** RIVER *** [Jh 2c 3c 5c] [Ad]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Saf Dude: shows [4s 3h] (a straight, Ace to Five)

(yeah badbeat, but look at what theyll call with!)

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
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euphoricism

12-23-2006, 07:07 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Your moves should almost always be all-in or fold postflop. When a shortstack reraises a fullstack, it should send warning bells ringing. They want to be called. Easy read, and makes for easy decisions for the fullstack.

As a shortstack, you need to be always putting your opponents in tough spots that dont appear particularly tough and tricking them into thinking "eh whatever he's PROBABLY got nothing" or "Eh its only half a stack"

At the least, if the person does fold to your oversized all-in bet, it sets up that you "always" do that, youre probably just gambling, wanting to double or bust, and encourages other people call oversized bets in the future. "This guy pushes every hand, he could have second pair, third pair, nothing, i'll call"

I like to steal blinds a lot, thats probably just my personality, I'm still kinda "eh" about it as shortstack strategy.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
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euphoricism

12-23-2006, 07:20 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Note: this was a BAD push. This was a BAD limp. But villain was a 88/10 that ive pushed on OVER and OVER and theyve folded every time so I went for it and it worked out.

PokerStars Game #7572613974: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/12/23 - 15:19:49 (ET)
Table 'Galilea' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: dennisa ($23.75 in chips)
Seat 2: TioRicoEdy1 ($57.70 in chips)
Seat 3: pseiko ($22.10 in chips)
Seat 4: gemini1978 ($48.10 in chips)
Seat 5: euphoricism ($14.05 in chips)
TioRicoEdy1: posts small blind $0.10
pseiko: posts big blind $0.25
mEoAnSeY1: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to euphoricism [5h Ah]
gemini1978: calls $0.25
euphoricism: calls $0.25
dennisa: folds
TioRicoEdy1: calls $0.15
pseiko: checks
*** FLOP *** [2h Ac Jc]
TioRicoEdy1: checks
pseiko: checks
gemini1978: bets $0.50
euphoricism: raises $13.30 to $13.80 and is all-in
TioRicoEdy1: folds
pseiko: folds
gemini1978: calls $13.30
*** TURN *** [2h Ac Jc] [Kd]
*** RIVER *** [2h Ac Jc Kd] [Th]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
gemini1978: shows [Js 7c] (a pair of Jacks)
euphoricism: shows [5h Ah] (a pair of Aces)

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!

euphoricism

12-23-2006, 07:41 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Alright last post for proof of awesome:

I had a little tablechat going on before this (dont underestimate the power of pissing people off).

I picked up like AJ on the button and open pushed. He folded and said, "Nice job, got my $0.25" and I said, "That'll buy me what, an hour with your wife?" (which is a good one) and this hand followed maybe 5 hands later.

Kemper00: posts small blind $0.10
euphoricism: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to euphoricism [Jh Qs]
SkoopAloop: raises $0.75 to $1
Buzz_Czar: folds
KirekZ: folds
Kemper00: folds
euphoricism: calls $0.75
*** FLOP *** [7d Js Jc]
euphoricism: checks
SkoopAloop: bets $2
euphoricism: raises $9.10 to $11.10 and is all-in
SkoopAloop: calls $9.10
*** TURN *** [7d Js Jc] [6h]
*** RIVER *** [7d Js Jc 6h] [Ad]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
euphoricism: shows [Jh Qs] (three of a kind, Jacks)
SkoopAloop: mucks hand
euphoricism collected $23.10 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $24.30 | Rake $1.20
Board [7d Js Jc 6h Ad]

Seat 3: SkoopAloop mucked [Ac Kd]

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
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euphoricism

12-23-2006, 07:51 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Woa woa woa, i just saw that OP wrote Shortstacking 20 BBs. Which I think is TOO SMALL. Buy in for 50bbs.

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bigspenda73

12-23-2006, 07:56 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Is 7 posts in the same thread within nearly an hour a record?

Lukie

12-23-2006, 08:07 PM

#11 (permalink)

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there are so many bad players out there (applies to fish and most if not all regulars at these games) that I just don't understand why you don't want as much money on the table as possible. To each their own, I guess.

12-24-2006, 03:46 AM

#12 (permalink)

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My dad used to play nothing but SNGs, but now he's starting to play cash games. He thinks shortstacking is the best way to go because he won't lose that much. He plays scared and probably isn't a winner because his thinking is all wrong.

If you're a good player you want the most money in front of you so when you actually win a big pot............you win a big pot.

Harry

12-24-2006, 04:00 AM

#13 (permalink)

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You won't improve your poker game by shortstacking.

PSU Class of 2011 weeeeeeee!

euphoricism

12-24-2006, 06:09 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

Its more than about just playing scared. Properly done its essentially its trading a few big doubleups for many half-sized ones. I'm hestitant to say which is "better", but in the era of the easy rathole, I can certainly say neither is "worse". Theyre entirely different styles with entirely different methods. Which one pays better is fairly impossible to determine, because there is no real statistically viable to test them against each other.

But really, how many times have you seen on this forum someone saying, "He's a shorty. so its an easy call." Next time you do that, just remember how much that mindset makes me.

Actually, plz dont.

Saying shortstacking wont improve your fullstack poker is a fairly stupid statement. Its not supposed to. Theyre very different approaches to the game.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
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Miffed22001

12-24-2006, 02:03 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

there are so many good players out there (applies to nearly all regulars at these games) that dont have a fucking clue about how to play against good short stack i dont know why we dont all try it a few times a week/month.

fyp.
seriously, i found 200nl and 400nl players actually didnt have a clue what i was doing for a long enough time for me to run disgustingly good against their dumb calling ranges.
This was on stars too, and the time it took to adapt was laughable, for players who think they play goot.

Also, ir provides a small winner at certain stakes with a larger edge in most circumstances. I wouldalso suggest tht actually watching the games players sit in will perhaps provide them with info too. It shouldnt be about 'not losing more money' its a tactic to confuse opponents.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry

You won't improve your poker game by shortstacking.

no but youll improve your bankroll. Same old arguement about do you play on stars or party.

Quote:

Originally Posted by noble007

you're playing too many hands (im not kidding either, if you only have 20bbs. It all about tp, not pps)

IowaSkinsFan

12-24-2006, 04:58 PM

#16 (permalink)

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IowaSkinsFan will become famous soon enough

Doesn't Greenstein always buy in shortstacked?

Check out the new blog!!!

noble007

12-24-2006, 07:19 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Thanks for all those responses guys esp. euphoricism
loved that line about the guys wife.

I have been running at 21 bb/100 for the last 9000 hands or so at microstakes(since I tried this 20bb. approach.) so even though it may not be optimal I will probably continue using that amount until I start losing.

I would start with a non-even amount as suggested but my approach is to always reload to 20bb's, so that I always have that amount pretty much before each hand and as soon as I have gone up to 40bb's I leave the table.

Miffed you said I'm playing too many hands, what would you suggest I do with PP's (66 & lower) in mid to late position in unraised pots with maybe 1 caller, limp, raise or fold?

K10 off-suit is the weakest hand I raise with & only then in mid to late position, should I add anymore?
My stats at the moment are about 25/10.

If I am re-raised pre-flop by somebody with a lower than 12 pfr %, I generally fold AJ & below & pocket pairs JJ & below is that ok?
I feel they know I've only got 15 bb's left so they expect me to call so even the microstakes players generally don't do it unless they have a top 10 hand.

I know that 4 a better player it is more profitable to buy in for a higher amount,
but for a weaker player I think this may be a decent approach.
I will keep you posted as to my results. Thanks.

euphoricism

10-16-2007, 06:02 PM

#18 (permalink)

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LoLoBumpadoodles. Shortstacking is the NUTS

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
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Miffed22001

10-16-2007, 06:15 PM

#19 (permalink)

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http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/a...standards.html

might help.

euphoricism

10-16-2007, 06:20 PM

#20 (permalink)

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I've been playing 200nl with 20bbs for i guess 3 or 4 days, and the profit has been unbelievable.

My biggest concern now is some of the regs are starting to recognize my screenname. Thankfully, i get to change it every week.

Now i need a good one.

ROFL. I raise UTG with AK, some moron shoves over me with A9. Free Money baby!

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!

|~|ypermegachi

10-16-2007, 06:58 PM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

My biggest concern now is some of the regs are starting to recognize my screenname. Thankfully, i get to change it every week.

doesn't matter. notes carry over between name changes.

euphoricism

10-16-2007, 07:11 PM

#22 (permalink)

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really? damn.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
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Deanglow

10-16-2007, 07:19 PM

#23 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by noble007

Wow this is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start.

euphoricism

10-16-2007, 07:25 PM

#24 (permalink)

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Yeah this thread sucks, we should lock it and start a new one.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!

euphoricism

10-16-2007, 07:28 PM

#25 (permalink)

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But there isnt a whole lot to talk about, so no real need to. Shortstacking is easy. If I were to write a bot, which im completely incapable of doing, nor would I try, it would shortstack.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!

kmind

10-16-2007, 08:00 PM

#26 (permalink)

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Oh shit noble's FTR? Fuck me. Sorry for no content but he does not shortstack anymore. Anyone shortstack regularly?

Fnord

10-16-2007, 08:21 PM

#27 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

For what it's worth, I prefer to play in the 40-60 range over the 20 range. 20 doesn't give you enough room to manipulate the pot or bluff past the flop, won't cap out the rake and it puts too much pressure on you to have showdown value. 50ish says "I might have something and if I do all of my money is going into this pot. So ask yourself, do you feel lucky punk?" I dislike 100 because it's really hard to get a good pot size for top pair sorts of hands unless you have an action pre-flop game. You don't need to be deep to out-chicken people playing way too many tables. I find that when I play these days I leave a lot of tables after winning a few small/medium pots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Doesn't Greenstein always buy in shortstacked?

He does sometimes. He's also playing in games where has has enough sense to know that he's not gettting the way best of it when the deep money goes into the pot. He said something like "one of these days you'll play in games where you don't get excessive action on your best hands" on 2+2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

10-16-2007, 08:22 PM

#28 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

there are so many bad players out there (applies to fish and most if not all regulars at these games) that I just don't understand why you don't want as much money on the table as possible.

Tourney donks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

euphoricism

10-16-2007, 08:28 PM

#29 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by kmind

Oh shit noble's FTR? Fuck me. Sorry for no content but he does not shortstack anymore. Anyone shortstack regularly?

I am, 20bbs at 200NL for the last 3 or 4 days. Making a f'n killing too.

I used to half-stack a lot, as I subscribe to fnords position of atleast giving me some room for postflop play, and TBH deep stack play is not particularly appealing to me. I like to get it in good and let the math take over the rest rather than as fnord put it, play a game of chicken. Wonder if thats the LHE in us coming through.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
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EzDuzIt

10-16-2007, 08:29 PM

#30 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Yeah this thread sucks, we should lock it and not start a new one.

euphoricism

10-16-2007, 08:31 PM

#31 (permalink)

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As long as I can do the following, I'll keep shortstacking...

Buck21: posts small blind $1
noMNYnoHNY: posts big blind $2
Dealt to IHeartUrMom [ Ks Kh ]
Weazy: raises to $4
IHeartUrMom: is all in
AllInVinR: folds
Buck21: folds
noMNYnoHNY: folds
Weazy: calls
*** FLOP *** [ Ad, 3s, 7s. ]
*** TURN *** [ 6s. ]
*** RIVER *** [ 3c. ]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
IHeartUrMom wins $81 with Two Pairs, Kings and Threes

Villain shows QJo.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!

Fnord

10-16-2007, 08:42 PM

#32 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

You don't need to be deep to out-chicken people playing way too many tables.

Evil thought of the day I shouldn't have posted:
When you buy-in for less than the max (but more than the min), the multi-Taggy-sorts will figure you for a fish and be less inclined to bluff you or call light and more inclined to wait for a hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

10-16-2007, 08:55 PM

#33 (permalink)

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BTW: If you're playing a lot of 20bb poker, you should buy a copy of Curtain's chart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

euphoricism

10-16-2007, 08:58 PM

#34 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

BTW: If you're playing a lot of 20bb poker, you should buy a copy of Curtain's chart.

Never heard of it. Explain?

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!

Fnord

10-16-2007, 09:01 PM

#35 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

BTW: If you're playing a lot of 20bb poker, you should buy a copy of Curtain's chart.

Never heard of it. Explain?

Google it. He did all the math.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

IowaSkinsFan

10-16-2007, 10:35 PM

#36 (permalink)

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ummmm Fnord why are you encouraging short stacking? frjkewfhrewfh good short stacks ruin the games.

Check out the new blog!!!

Fnord

10-16-2007, 10:47 PM

#37 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

ummmm Fnord why are you encouraging short stacking? frjkewfhrewfh good short stacks ruin the games.

Cry more, your tears quench my thirst...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

IowaSkinsFan

10-17-2007, 01:25 AM

#38 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

ummmm Fnord why are you encouraging short stacking? frjkewfhrewfh good short stacks ruin the games.

Cry more, your tears quench my thirst...

lol pwned

Check out the new blog!!!

|~|ypermegachi

10-17-2007, 02:29 AM

#39 (permalink)

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...page=7&fpart=1

euphoricism

10-17-2007, 07:00 PM

#40 (permalink)

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Side benefit of shortstacking:

Since you can shortstack higher stakes than you'd usually play, your RB earnings shoot up. I'm earning 1ptbb/100 in RB shorting 200NL. This is equivalent to a 4ptbb/100 winrate at my usual stakes (50NL), which is not to far from what I was earning at 50NL when I was playing 100bb deep.

Holla!

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!

euphoricism

10-17-2007, 07:24 PM

#41 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=FR&Number=12157664&page=7 &fpart=1

This thread seems misguided. He makes some good points and then fails to draw them to their conclusion.

Quote:

. The worst thing you can do to a short stacker is raise his limps, raise his blinds and 3bet his raises.

Does he mean the BEST thing you can do for a shortstacker is to raise his limps, blinds, and 3bet him light?

Shorties limp for very specific reasons, and it ain't set camping. I've limp-shoved considerably more times than i've limped to see a flop.

Raising from the button against my blinds will get a lot of folds, but it'll get a lot of shoves too.

And 3betting a shorties raises light is absolutely silly. We WANT you to 3bet us light. That would be AWESOME. This guy seems to think we're raising preflop with junk. That couldn't be further from the truth. When a shorty raises pre, you should be seeing warning bells because the fundamental truth of shortstacks is that their small stack belies just how tight they really are.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
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euphoricism

10-17-2007, 07:33 PM

#42 (permalink)

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Granted, he's talking full ring and I'm playing 6m. I'm not entirely sure that changes things, but it might.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!

Miffed22001

10-17-2007, 09:10 PM

#43 (permalink)

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i need to pay fnord to teach me how to make money

sauce123

10-17-2007, 09:39 PM

#44 (permalink)

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dear shorstackers,

plz kill yourself

I got more flava than fruitstripe gum

Fnord

10-17-2007, 09:44 PM

#45 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

dear shorstackers,

plz kill yourself

Cry more, your tears quench my thirst...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

sauce123

10-17-2007, 09:50 PM

#46 (permalink)

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in all seriousness if you regularly read and post in an online poker forum and are unable to beat drunk mongoloids cashing in 50 dollars to soothe their latest scratch ticket debacle with a full stack plz quit poker.

if u understand the fundamentals of poker then optimal shortstack strategy is veeerrry easy to figure out but i wont post it here, u can figure it out if u understand how to use poker stove...

I got more flava than fruitstripe gum

euphoricism

10-17-2007, 11:06 PM

#47 (permalink)

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I lol'd. That has to be among your worst posts evar, sauce.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!

euphoricism

10-17-2007, 11:10 PM

#48 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

i need to pay fnord to teach me how to make money

Invest 70k. Wait 30 years.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!

Fnord

10-17-2007, 11:16 PM

#49 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I lol'd. That has to be among your worst posts evar, sauce.

I'm thinking it's time to spin off a half-stack post. I almost feel sick doing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Halv

10-17-2007, 11:40 PM

#50 (permalink)

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Lately I've been buying in just enough to cover the fish. Ideal situation is fish with 100+BBs on my right, but if the fish only has 40BBs then I might as well have 40BBs myself. Cuts down on difficult decisions vs equally skilled/better opponents sitting behind me.

Usually I end up auto-clicking rebuy to 100BB's because I forget, though :P.

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