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Setting up a bluff.

  
 
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 04-03-2007, 03:34 AM     Post subject: Setting up a bluff. #1 (permalink)  
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 I repop J6s because i have played one hand in the 50 at the table, I recognize three of these guys as regs, one of which is villan, who is 21/18/5, 23% WTSD% aggro, and calls way too much when threebet it seems.
The small size of the flop bet is manipulation.
PokerStars Game #9224353205: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2007/04/02 - 23:14:31 (ET)
Table 'Lyalya' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: MrNgai ($198 in chips)
Seat 2: lifes3ps ($211.60 in chips)
Seat 4: perschonrs38 ($220.65 in chips)
Seat 5: dNoUnTkSe ($223.25 in chips)
Seat 6: redgrape ($236.35 in chips)
MrNgai: posts small blind $1
lifes3ps: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to redgrape [Jd 6d]
perschonrs38: folds
dNoUnTkSe: raises $6 to $8
redgrape: raises $16 to $24
MrNgai: folds
lifes3ps: folds
dNoUnTkSe: calls $16
*** FLOP *** [5h 3c 4s]
dNoUnTkSe: checks
redgrape: bets $20
dNoUnTkSe: raises $54 to $74
redgrape: raises $138.35 to $212.35 and is all-in
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 04-03-2007, 05:22 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 This isn't interesting?
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bigspenda73
Old 04-03-2007, 05:28 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 Dude, I thought YOU called this "standard"
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gabe
Old 04-03-2007, 05:33 AM #4 (permalink)  
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just bet pot and call the push, always works out better that way
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 04-03-2007, 05:36 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Dude, I thought YOU called this "standard"
When? Some other thread? I dont remember.
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bigspenda73
Old 04-03-2007, 05:54 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Dude, I thought YOU called this "standard"
When? Some other thread? I dont remember.
Every thread you've posted.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 04-03-2007, 06:01 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Dude, I thought YOU called this "standard"
When? Some other thread? I dont remember.
Every thread you've posted.
Wow, pretty harsh. I'm sorry i come off like i know everything. I know i don't.
I'm not going to post this if i think its completely standard, i want to see what people think. I'd really appreciate it if this thread didn't become a banter between us because im seriously interested in responses.
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Genitruc
Old 04-03-2007, 06:09 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 post-flop seems fine... dare I say "standard"? U likely have 11 outs...

Preflop sux imo esp if your read is that villain calls way too much. No need to do it with J6s.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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bigspenda73
Old 04-03-2007, 06:12 AM #9 (permalink)  
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 You realize you haven't actually asked a question in this thread except:

"This isn't interesting?"

So I'll ask some questions:

Are you going to b/3bet pretty much all flops?
Do you normally take this line with only an OESD?
Finally, what metagame reason is behind 3popping J6s?

Finally, I stand by what I said. Everything you've posted deals with some sort of out of line bluff/semi-bluff hence why I said this hand looks standard for the style of play you have. Unfortunately with your image playing a draw this fast may not be the best way to do it with just a naked OESD. You're going to get looked up a ton and maybe have only 30% equity in this spot without much FE.
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Genitruc
Old 04-03-2007, 06:22 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Genitruc is an unknown quantity at this point
 villain doesn t have AA-QQ a whole lot here and we have a JJ blocker.

So I think b/3bet is fine.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 04-03-2007, 06:29 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Finally, what metagame reason is behind 3popping J6s?
Does there have to be metagame behind this? If you haven't been active at all you can raise some junk.
Quote:
Preflop sux imo esp if your read is that villain calls way too much. No need to do it with J6s.
His read is that he calls too much, but this can be in ISF's favor because he'll probably respect his bet on the flop which means this guy will be practically giving away chips.

Quote:
Do you normally take this line with only an OESD?
I think the interesting part about this play is ISF's initial flop bet. He's pretty much trying to induce a raise with nothing, because the 3-bet now has a lot of Fold Equity. Although the villian may be too priced in at this point to fold... but with a hand like 88-TT, maybe JJ he'll probably let it go.

With the straight draw in this big pot your most likely not going to find a fold, so we just want to take the line with the most Fold Equity. My first instinct would be to just to double barrel... But ISF's play is probably better.
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bigspenda73
Old 04-03-2007, 06:53 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 His flop raise looks large enough that he doesn't mind getting committed. However, if your smallish flop bet was solely for the intention of getting raised then I like the play.

Also, wouldn't hands like 99/TT/JJ call the flop and lead the turn most of the time instead of c/r'ing the flop?
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mcatdog
Old 04-03-2007, 07:09 AM #13 (permalink)  
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The fact that you post a lot of bluffs makes me hate you, not only as a poker player, but as a person.
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 04-03-2007, 08:26 AM #14 (permalink)  
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 LOL this is more funny cause i'm high.
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sauce123
Old 04-03-2007, 04:04 PM #15 (permalink)  
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I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time... again your read of this guy was "calls too much in 3bet pots and goes to SD a lot" ........... now call me crazy but my line of reasoning to beat this strategy would be: 3bet strong hands only so that he will make mistakes by calling OOP wiht junk: lets say AQ+ TT+ which all crush his calling range.

Besides my loathing of preflop, I play it the same postflop.
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biondino
Old 04-03-2007, 04:34 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Haha I was just about to post what Sauce posted. 3-bet crap against weak/tighties who will fold at some point during the hand! Or am I not thinking on enough levels?
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 04-03-2007, 04:47 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
again your read of this guy was "calls too much in 3bet pots and goes to SD a lot" ...........
23% i don't think is going to SD a lot. In fact, it's a pretty interesting question of whether or not you should be three betting players more or less if they call threebets too much. I say this because I too thought that if a guy is calling threebets too much there is no reason to induce him to call with a wider range.
But then I watch taylor caby say in one of his vids that "You should threebet a wider range versus people with a wide calling range" because of a few reasons, one i remember he said is that he can't call pp's profitably to your reraises because ur not stacking off everytime.
So then I go into gabe's well thread and ask the same question and he doesn't want to go completely into it but definetely acknowledges that the idea isnt dumb.
So then I go ask Lyric and show him the entire HH expecting him to hate it since he's a relatively standard guy. And he goes he likes all of it, and says to me that it's good to threebet hands sometimes that you wouldn't normally three bet at all, like J6s.

I'm not saying now I think I should 3 bet J6s every once and awhile, but I am really looking into whether i should be threebetting looser versus people with wide calling ranges.
The only point I'm pretty sure of is: Surely we should be threebetting a lot versus people with wide calling ranges if they aren't playing back at us.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mcatdog
The fact that you post a lot of bluffs makes me hate you, not only as a poker player, but as a person.
Idk what to make of this lol.
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zenbitz
Old 04-03-2007, 06:16 PM #18 (permalink)  
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I understand that you can 3-bet J6s sometimes if you have been colddecked... but why against a guy that calls 3bets light. It seems obv. to me that (in a perfect world) you want to be 3-betting a range that is exactly crushes his calling range.

So if he raise/calls 3bet with 22+/AXs/78s+ Then you should 3 bet like 77+/AT+ maybe 2 bw. But why would you 3-bet J6s if he calls with JT or A7s?

As played - he probably has an overpair so you have 8 clean outs. What's that, like 30% equity? So you need him to fold quite a bit for this to be good. If he has overcards like 40% of the time, then this is a great move, because he will certainly fold them.
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gabe
Old 04-03-2007, 06:44 PM #19 (permalink)  
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bottom line: you dont want to set the person up to put money in the pot (i know you are really setting up yourself, but you have to get them to do it first), but thats not the right goal here. the best thing would be for them to fold or just call and check turn.

preflop isn't standard but debating it here is pointless.

this is still a decent thread even if it doesn't ask a question.
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Galapogos
Old 04-03-2007, 06:58 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
Lol! Best line in a lecture I've ever read!


Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
 
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 04-03-2007, 07:29 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
bottom line: you dont want to set the person up to put money in the pot (i know you are really setting up yourself, but you have to get them to do it first), but thats not the right goal here. the best thing would be for them to fold or just call and check turn.
This was pretty much why i posted this hand, to see if potting the flop is better.
But meh, considering opp is almost never pushing all in over my $20 flop bet and we're not folding don't we have more FE by three betting? If he calls the $20 bet it's pretty obvious that he'll fold to a turn bet.
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gabe
Old 04-03-2007, 07:47 PM #22 (permalink)  
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ive noticed you use the phrase 'pretty obvious' too much
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 04-03-2007, 07:49 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
ive noticed you use the phrase 'pretty obvious' too much
lol yeah i probably should get that out of my vocab.
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sauce123
Old 04-03-2007, 07:53 PM #24 (permalink)  
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I almost never pot the flop after I cbet so I think potting it would look weird, and I think ISf is the same way.

Meh, idk I definitely agree that you shouldnt be 3betting only AK TT+ say as ppl are gonna be calling so often trying to hit a flop hard etc etc. At the same time I think the importance of having a balanced 3betting range is waaaaay over-rated at 100, 200nl, as ppl are going to make enough mistakes in 3bet pots that only 3betting monster hands is definitely possible and probably not too far off from optimal. basically greenplastic is playing with the best players in the world for tens of thousands of hands- this is a completely different situation. well, regardless... I mean grabbing the initiative of a hand from position cant really be all that bad, I guess Im just flaming cause I rly didnt like a couple of other hands you guys posted and im running the worst ive ever run in my life. I def 3bet trash sometimes too. peace.
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Drewno
Old 04-11-2007, 05:28 PM #25 (permalink)  

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Hi, I'm 'Dnountkse'.

Decided to google my poker name for laughs, and this is the first thread that popped up.

On this particular hand I had an admittedly poorly played AQs. You had 3bet me several times in this session and I was getting frustrated with you on my left at this table. Obviously I chose a bad spot to get tricky OOP on the flop.

I have only called two 3bets from you so far (120 logged hands w/you) so I'm not sure how you get the impression that I do it too often.

You also had a VPIP for your first 40 hands at this table (About how many before this one) of about 30%. I didn't have you pegged as a 'tight' player by any means.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 04-11-2007, 05:49 PM #26 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewno
Hi, I'm 'Dnountkse'.

Decided to google my poker name for laughs, and this is the first thread that popped up.

On this particular hand I had an admittedly poorly played AQs. You had 3bet me several times in this session and I was getting frustrated with you on my left at this table. Obviously I chose a bad spot to get tricky OOP on the flop.

I have only called two 3bets from you so far (120 logged hands w/you) so I'm not sure how you get the impression that I do it too often.

You also had a VPIP for your first 40 hands at this table (About how many before this one) of about 30%. I didn't have you pegged as a 'tight' player by any means.
Oh weird, lol cool the opponent drops in.
I had the impression that i hadn't been playing a lot of hands here and i don't really remember three betting at all at that table, but maybe i just got mixed up or something.

This is interesting because i just saw you calling threebets a lot at the table, not really versus me necessarily.

You chose a good spot to get tricky versus a lot of players though. Unfortunately, you ran into one of the few spots i really got tricky.

I'm wondering if you think you call here with JJ-77?
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Drewno
Old 04-11-2007, 07:21 PM #27 (permalink)  

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At this point I would not fold JJ, maybe the lower pairs. If I had no idea on your stats/playstyle I would fold those hands. I actually did fold exactly JJ to you a few hands earlier when you called on the button and raised a 457 w/flush draw board on the flop.
POKERSTARS GAME #9224273035: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2007/04/02 - 23:09:18 (ET)
Table 'Lyalya' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: teenabill ($46.05 in chips)
Seat 2: lifes3ps ($213.60 in chips)
Seat 4: perschonrs38 ($208.60 in chips)
Seat 5: dNoUnTkSe ($229 in chips)
Seat 6: redgrape ($200 in chips)
lifes3ps: posts small blind $1
perschonrs38: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dNoUnTkSe [Jc Jh]
dNoUnTkSe: raises $6 to $8
redgrape: calls $8
teenabill: folds
lifes3ps: folds
perschonrs38: folds
*** FLOP *** [7s 5c 4c]
dNoUnTkSe: bets $12
redgrape: raises $24 to $36

What'd you have then? :P
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 04-11-2007, 08:53 PM #28 (permalink)  
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 let me look, i dont remember but im guessing i had u beat.
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