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dsmrolla06
Old 05-24-2007, 03:49 PM     Post subject: Set line checks #1 (permalink)  
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Hand 1 villain is a 33/9/2.5 over 190 hands, has been somewhat aggressive preflop and 3 bet me a couple times. I also have a pretty loose and aggressive image so far at the table.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($121.85)
MP ($102.30)
CO ($50)
Button ($95.20)
SB ($180.55)
BB ($100)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 2, 2.
Hero raises to $3.5, MP raises to $12, 3 folds, Hero calls $8.50.

Flop: ($25.50) Q, 9, 2 (3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $18, Hero calls $18.

Turn: ($61.50) J (3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $25, Hero raises to $82




Hand 2 i wasnt really sure if i should raise or not, the flop was so dry i didnt want to raise anyone out. CO is a 37.7/15.4/2.6 and has been pretty loose aggresive. From what ive seen hes capable of making some plays with marginal holdings but didnt know if his minraise meant strength. BB is a 32/20.5/2.4 over 1581 hands and has been playing similarily to CO, both of which ive seen them make some really mad all in over bets into small pots with, and seen BB push all in pf with 70bb stack into 3 limpers.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($116.35)
BB ($64.80)
UTG ($90.10)
MP ($236)
CO ($174.20)
Button ($147.90)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3, 3.
2 folds, CO calls $1, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB raises to $5, CO calls $3, Hero calls $3.

Flop: ($13) J, 8, 3 (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $9, CO raises to $22, Hero calls $22, BB raises to $69.8 (All-In), CO folds, Hero calls $38.80.
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cardsman1992
Old 05-24-2007, 03:57 PM #2 (permalink)  
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#1 looks fine. If you run into QQ/JJ then nh to him. He ain't doing this with KT... and you crush AA/KK/AK.

#2 is okay given the reads, but I still like pushing flop.
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zook
Old 05-24-2007, 04:33 PM #3 (permalink)  
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1. Fold pre-flop. On the flop c/c is fine, I also don't mind donk/3-bet AI. On the turn I like either a donk for ~$25 (hoping he shoves over) or a c/c better than a c/r. The $25 bet says he missed to me (as does the "MP folds", leave that out) and is making the cheapest bluff he can.

2. Good.
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dsmrolla06
Old 05-24-2007, 04:40 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Edited, meant to leave that out.
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griffey24
Old 05-24-2007, 04:40 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zook
1. Fold pre-flop. On the flop c/c is fine, I also don't mind donk/3-bet AI. On the turn I like either a donk for ~$25 (hoping he shoves over) or a c/c better than a c/r. The $25 bet says he missed to me (as does the "MP folds", leave that out) and is making the cheapest bluff he can.
Fold preflop?.. this is close isn't it? Hero has to call $8.5, and the effective stacks are still about $90. Also, villain 3-bet, so its even more likely that we will stack him if we hit our set.

I don't mind the call. What kind of odds to people normally want in a 3-bet pot?
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zook
Old 05-24-2007, 04:53 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
Fold preflop?.. this is close isn't it? Hero has to call $8.5, and the effective stacks are still about $90. Also, villain 3-bet, so its even more likely that we will stack him if we hit our set.

I don't mind the call. What kind of odds to people normally want in a 3-bet pot?
It is close, but in 6-max, more of a 3-bet range is made up of hands villains won't always stack off with (AK/AQ/QQ) than hands they will (AA/KK), and if he's been 3-betting hero light, it's even worse. I look for 15:1 implied to set mine low pp's vs. solid opponents. Lukie might argue 25:1: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-31291.htm
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cardsman1992
Old 05-24-2007, 05:16 PM #7 (permalink)  
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maybe that's a problem then...I am looking for 10:1
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Galapogos
Old 05-24-2007, 06:01 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Galapogos is just really niceGalapogos is just really niceGalapogos is just really niceGalapogos is just really niceGalapogos is just really nice
 I look for 10:1 against tight preflop 3-betters.


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I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
 
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dsmrolla06
Old 05-24-2007, 06:50 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Do you ever look to take the pot away with a hand like small pocket pairs in a 3 bet pot on something like a Q83 rainbow board if they are 3betting light?
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zook
Old 05-24-2007, 07:13 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmrolla06
Do you ever look to take the pot away with a hand like small pocket pairs in a 3 bet pot on something like a Q83 rainbow board if they are 3betting light?
I try not to bluff post-flop in 3-bet pots. If I suspect someone's 3-betting light I'd rather 4-bet them light.
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cardsman1992
Old 05-24-2007, 07:14 PM #11 (permalink)  
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DSM--Depends on how light....even with a guy that raises 9-15% of his hands, his 3bet range is probably tighter. TT+, AQ+.

I want to be very sure of FE if I try this.

I think Z nails it.
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dsmrolla06
Old 05-24-2007, 07:21 PM #12 (permalink)  
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In 100NL, 100bb effective stacks, standard raise is $3.50 and a standard 3 bet is $12-13.50. When your 4betting what are you raising to and what hands do you like to 4bet with light (or at all for that matter) and against what type of players? When you do 4 bet are you calling a 5bet allin, again what hands and what type of player. If they just smooth call how are you playing post flop, in and oop.

I know this is kind of broad but id like to hear more thoughts on this, because i feel like i need to be 3/4 betting more (and am starting to) although what are your thoughts on 3/4betting light at 100NL?
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zenbitz
Old 05-24-2007, 07:56 PM #13 (permalink)  
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OOP 22 is a fold there maybe even with 15x implied odds.
Your check-cold-call on hand 2 would scare the bejeezus out of me if I was in the hand... this guy... not so much.
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zook
Old 05-24-2007, 08:36 PM #14 (permalink)  
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4-bet sizing is a interesting topic. I'm curious to hear other opinions. With 100bb stacks you have four options:

1) Never 4-bet. This doesn't mean you call with AA/KK/AK and fold everything else, b/c if villain is paying attention they'll 3-bet you to death. You have to call with premium, good and speculative hands. Pros: Deceptive. Decreases variance. Allows you to outplay your opponent postflop (pick off c-bets). Cons: You'll be playing big pots oop occasionally. You may lose value from your premiums.

2) 4-bet small. By small I mean less than pot-size, so from $12 to ~$28. Pros: This bet size makes it mathematically correct to fold light 4-bets to 5-bet shoves from your opponent, reducing variance. Cons: May not have as much fold equity as a larger 4-bet.

3) 4-bet larger. Pot-size would be from $12 to ~$37. Pros: Might have more fold equity than a smaller 4-bet. Cons: Makes it mathematically correct to call most 5-bet shoves, increasing variance.

4) 4-bet AI. Pros: Probably the most fold equity. Great for metagame, gains value for AA/KK. Cons: Light 4-bets are obv getting the worst of it when called, variance goes way up.

I'm still refining my 4-bet strategy, but I try to shift between these options depending on my opponent. The +EV of light 4-bets comes almost entirely fold equity and any difference in equity when called is a side benefit, so FE is what I'm usually thinking about.

As for 100nl, I've played very little 6max there, but my guess is that light 3-betting is very profitable and light 4-betting not so much.
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dsmrolla06
Old 05-24-2007, 08:54 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Well ive recently ran into some people that have been 3betting alot which leads me to assume theyre 3 betting light so i was looking for good ways to combat this. I guess i would rather 4bet/call a 3bet in position with a hand like 89s than something like A9 or KQ. It gets tough when you get hands like JJ and QQ and get into 4 bet pots as well since usually your wa/wb on a baby flop.
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zook
Old 05-24-2007, 10:59 PM #16 (permalink)  
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If you're sure they're 3-betting light, then 4-betting light can be profitable.

Play around with pokerstove. Click on Player 1 and assign a light 3-betting hand range and see what percentage of all hands that is. Take away the hands you think will fold to a 4-bet and see how much of his range you're folding. This is based on some back-of-the-envelope EV calculations, but if it isn't well more than half then I don't think he's 3-betting light enough to make 4-betting light profitable.

Also play around with pokerstove and see how various hands stack up against a typical 4-bet calling range. Most villains won't call (or shove over) a four-bet without QQ+/AK. Against this range...

TT = 36.4%
22 = 34%
65s = 31.1%
T9s = 29.9%
97s = 29.5%
ATs = 29.3%
A2s = 28.9%
A2o = 24.8%
AQo = 24.4%

Some villains won't call a 4-bet with AK, and if you take it away AK and add JJ, it looks a lot different...

AQo = 30%
ATs = 29.6%
A2s = 29.4%
A2o = 25.5%
65s = 22.4%
97s = 20.5%
T9s = 20.3%
TT = 18.6%
22 = 18%

What looks good on both? Suited aces.

Something counterintuitive? If you're going to 4-bet light with suited connectors, better to choose 65s or 87s b/c they have more equity when called by overpairs or overcards than JTs or T9s.

Cliffnotes: Be as sure as you can that villain is 3-betting light before you 4-bet light. Most of your +EV from 4-betting light comes from fold equity. But, if you're worried about equity if called, suited aces and low-to-medium suited connectors are good choices for some typical 4-bet calling ranges.
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dsmrolla06
Old 05-25-2007, 05:35 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Ok, so you are pretty sure hes betting 3betting light and you 4 bet with a suited ace and the flop comes A high, not draw to your flush, whats your lin ip and oop?
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zook
Old 05-25-2007, 06:13 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmrolla06
Ok, so you are pretty sure hes betting 3betting light and you 4 bet with a suited ace and the flop comes A high, not draw to your flush, whats your lin ip and oop?
Always push the flop when you four-bet. You'll only have ~psb behind anyway.
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sauce123
Old 05-25-2007, 07:09 AM #19 (permalink)  
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hand 1: try to get it all in on the flop so basically dont stop raising until he calls

hand 2: looks fine vs monkeys but anyone with half a brain knows ur cold call means a set lol
I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
 
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dsmrolla06
Old 05-25-2007, 07:41 AM #20 (permalink)  
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How else do you play hand 2 to get in as much money as possible without scaring them away? The guy that minraised could really have any kind of hand, theres probly nothing i can really do to keep him in the hand, but if i came over the top of both of them wouldnt it looks just as strong?
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sauce123
Old 05-26-2007, 12:00 AM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmrolla06
How else do you play hand 2 to get in as much money as possible without scaring them away? The guy that minraised could really have any kind of hand, theres probly nothing i can really do to keep him in the hand, but if i came over the top of both of them wouldnt it looks just as strong?
yes. no matter what you do you look strong here and its not like ur balancing ur bluffs cause this isnt really a great bluffing spot. I dont mind ur call here at all because it allows bad players to make mistakes and ur not in any significant danger of being drawn out on. So against almost any but ur most observant opponents (and maybe even against them) its better to call, cause even good players will sometimes read a hand wrong and make a stupid bluff shove here..
I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
 
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