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Semi-interesting line with QQ

  
 
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Ravageur
Old 01-12-2007, 11:17 PM     Post subject: Semi-interesting line with QQ #1 (permalink)  
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I took a long posting break for the (surprisingly common i imagine) reason of being in a downswing or playing bad whatever and being disgusted with poker in general. Just finished a session where I think i played decent but here's a hand that I talked to a fellow FTRer about and it spurred an interesting discussion.
I thought I'd chime in with you guys and see what the consensus is.

Villain seems to be a semi-tag with stats of 19/9 over only 60 hands. Half-buyin-monkey-limper is sporting wonderful stats of 47/1 over 100 hands so his range is anything...including big hands (I had seen him limp QQ about 20 hands earlier and check it down on a KKxxx flop).

FullTiltPoker Game #1585629002: Table Bayberry (6 max) - $1/$2 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:07:32 ET - 2007/01/12
Seat 1: tkdcrew ($263.30)
Seat 2: termy555 ($187.75)
Seat 3: diehard467 ($92.85)
Seat 4: kidsgot2eat ($255.50)
Seat 5: Boogatoo ($200.35)
Seat 6: Ravageur ($201)
Ravageur posts the small blind of $1
tkdcrew posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ravageur [Qh Qs]
termy555 has 15 seconds left to act
termy555 folds
diehard467 calls $2
kidsgot2eat folds
Boogatoo raises to $9
Ravageur calls $8
tkdcrew folds
diehard467 calls $7
*** FLOP *** [Td 6h 4c]
Ravageur checks
diehard467 checks
Boogatoo bets $29
Ravageur calls $29
diehard467 folds
*** TURN *** [Td 6h 4c] [Kh]
Ravageur bets $44
Boogatoo calls $44
*** RIVER *** [Td 6h 4c Kh] [8c]
Ravageur checks???

How many of you 3-bet this PF and c-bet this flop if you do so?(and what's your plan for the turn if called?)
As I played it, do most of you c/f the river?
Does anyone else play it like I did? lol
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benny999
Old 01-12-2007, 11:34 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Can you explain your thoughts? This is for sure a "non-standard" way of playing.

I would've reraise pre flop since you're oop. I like calling to keep in the donkey more if you're in position, or maybe oop with AA/KK.

I would've led out on the flop for value/protection/info - if you get called by donk then raised by the pfr, I think I'd dump it, or else you build the pot with the donk.

Then I think I check the turn and fold to a big bet, or bet less on the turn, and probably block the river. Yea I think I'd c/f the river as played.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 01-12-2007, 11:38 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 I would reraise preflop.
But with this line I'd probably check the river.
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Ravageur
Old 01-13-2007, 12:05 AM #4 (permalink)  
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couple random thoughts about the hand as requested.

Preflop : Just calling gives half-buyin a great opportunity to squeeze all in with a ton of hands that I'm crushing if he feels frisky. Also I'm not that scared of peeling a flop 3-way OOP compared to peeling a flop OOP in a RERAISED pot against a decent player (obv i take it down PF a lot of the time, which is fine, but there's also the clause in this being that if the original raiser 4-bets AI, I have a tough ass decision...i'm not that eager to play for stacks PF against this guy with qq).

Flop : I think this is pretty standard, I give the shorty the chance to push AI when I just call, only better hands call a c/r. Leading might be ok too but I don't want to get reraised off of it by a worse hand like A10, JJ (KK, AA and a set are in his range as well of course but IMO just calling and leading the turn reps more strength and thus loses me less against hands I'm trailing than if I lead flop and check the turn).

Turn : I may still have the best hand at this point but check-calling is gross because I don't want him to pump the turn and make for an all-in situation on the river. Leading sets my price and he can still call with a bare ten or JJ which I'm ahead of and probably still only calls with hands I'm smoked by (AA and AK).

River : I definitely want to check it down and see him muck JJ or A10 or 99. I also think since i've taken a weird line he isn't going to bet AK or KQ here meaning i've lost basically the minumum (I'm really only beaten by AK, KK and 10s). I don't think there's any value left in betting as I don't think he calls a bet here with JJ or a bare ten so I check. If he bets I think I fold pretty fast.

Obviously my thought process would be entirely different if I had 3-bet PF.

Anyway, berate away. I thought this line would extract the most out of hand I beat and lose the min against hands that had me beat anyway Preflop (AK is a flip obv). All comments are appreciated.
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griffey24
Old 01-13-2007, 12:27 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 I think a 3-bet here preflop depends on the stats of the PF raiser. How often does he re-raise, and what is his range? If he's been re-raising light, I think I 3-bet this strong for sure.

As played, I think only a pair of kings or better can call this turn. A check on the river is definitely good. Check-call/check-fold river, depending on his bet size.

The only hands I can see calling that turn, that you beat, are A10h, or AJh or something (if he's a light PF re-raiser).
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Ravageur
Old 01-13-2007, 12:40 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
I think a 3-bet here preflop depends on the stats of the PF raiser. How often does he re-raise, and what is his range? If he's been re-raising light, I think I 3-bet this strong for sure.

As played, I think only a pair of kings or better can call this turn. A check on the river is definitely good. Check-call/check-fold river, depending on his bet size.

The only hands I can see calling that turn, that you beat, are A10h, or AJh or something (if he's a light PF re-raiser).
As stated in OP, villain in hand was 19/9 over only 60 hands. No great reads, but there's no indication he's a bad player. I disagree that only a King can call the turn. If you were villain, what would you put ME on? Why do I have a king here? And if I don't have a king, why can't he call with a bare ten or JJ or the draws that just appeared. I agree that when he calls, a King makes up a substantial portion of his range, but he can definitely be calling with worse hands no?

Anyway not trying to shoot you down, just throwing out some thoughts. Thx for reply.
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Genitruc
Old 01-13-2007, 05:53 AM #7 (permalink)  
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 OMG RERAISE PREFLOP YOU FISH
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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benny999
Old 01-13-2007, 07:51 AM #8 (permalink)  
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I don't like ur logic for smooth calling pf, because the donk is not that likely to squeeze (unless you had a specific read), and imo 100bb is enough to get away if you think ur beat vs the 19/9 pre or post flop.

otherwise I think what you wrote is alright and mostly comes down to personal style, but what I think is:
I like leading the flop a little more than checking, since you can get more info (possibly) and similar value.
and I dunno if villain (probably an abc-type tag) would turn a 99 sort of hand into a bluff with the turn K if you check, but I see what ur saying.
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gabe
Old 01-13-2007, 04:34 PM #9 (permalink)  
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c/r flop
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