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routine 3bet pot scenario

  
 
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pantherhound
Old 06-17-2008, 12:31 PM     Post subject: routine 3bet pot scenario #1 (permalink)  
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 ok, not been at table long, opp hasnt done much yet, assumed solid but no read. he doesnt know much of me and tanks before calling flop. just wondering really, how many of you consider this to be a good turn shove scenario and how important is board texture here?

Game #7461615254: Hold'em NL ($0.50/$1) - 2008/06/17 - 13:21:00 (UK)
Table "Daedide" Seat 1 is the button.
Seat 1: StenTril ($198.70 in chips)
Seat 2: Ben100410 ($100 in chips)
Seat 3: Gibbon ($42.10 in chips)
Seat 4: oladius ($103.84 in chips)
Seat 5: boba ($129.13 in chips)
Seat 6: Margret ($76.36 in chips)
Ben100410: posts small blind $0.50
Gibbon: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Ben100410 [Qd Kh]
oladius: folds
oladius sits out
oladius sits back
boba: folds
Margret: folds
StenTril: raises to $4
Ben100410: raises to $13
Gibbon: folds
StenTril: calls $9
----- FLOP ----- [5c Ah 7s]
Ben100410: bets $19
StenTril: calls $19
----- TURN ----- [5c Ah 7s][4c]
Ben100410:
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Fnord
Old 06-17-2008, 12:36 PM #2 (permalink)  
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What site is this? Is the table playing TAggy?

I think every street is super-debatable.

Pre-flop: Not super-excited about re-raising here because you're going to blow worse hands out of the pot and when you get called you can't be super-excited when you hit top pair. On the other hand, you need to 3-bet here sometimes and maybe it's time to test him and KQ is a playable enough hand for that.

Flop: If he's going to tend to fold to a 3-bet, giving up here is pretty reasonable. If he's going to fold a lot of his range to the flopped range to the Ace you may as well collect. He might be feeling you out too and blink.

Turn: Spew unless you think he's really weak and not giving you hollywood. Usually I give up here.

...I don't think you can look at this hand in isolation.
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bode
Old 06-17-2008, 12:44 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 even if you had even a GS or something here i would be more inclined to shove, but you have 0% equity when called here, so i just give up.
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pantherhound
Old 06-17-2008, 01:08 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 its crypto. this was a sort of 'feel my way back into 3betting' type of hand as im back to $100nl and theres more 3betting here on this site at that stake. i dont make a habit of doing this vs unknowns with kq but im ahead of most solid players BTN opening range. when i see the A i feel like I have to bluff but at the same time the flop is so dry and i dont know how he would perceive leading out on this board (which I would do nearly all the time with an ace) having said this he still doesnt know much about my tendencies either.

as played from his tank it feels like a JJ, 99 sort of hand that thinks im full of shit but i really dont know any more about the guy.
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Fnord
Old 06-17-2008, 01:15 PM #5 (permalink)  
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If that's what you think, then $40 should do the trick just fine. It's just money.
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pantherhound
Old 06-17-2008, 01:23 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 lol point taken. i just wanted some discussion on 3bet pots really as i suck at them and have been able to crush the stake below usually only 3betting AA-99 AK. i did give up on this hand, fwiw.
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Fnord
Old 06-17-2008, 01:36 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pantherhound
lol point taken. i just wanted some discussion on 3bet pots really as i suck at them.
3-betting out of the blinds has been a part of my game for a while now, although I probably don't do it enough. Getting 3-bet light more often when I raise the button is something I have had to adapt to. I felt better about it when I reasoned that I should figure to lose money in those spots as I will tend to have the worse hand. Then when I checked my results, I was ahead by quite a lot. So I suspect a lot of people are doing themselves in by spewing too much to blow off weak hands, win small pots and lose big ones.
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nutsinho
Old 06-17-2008, 04:33 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 shove? huh? he folds the same range if you bet half as much. Stone cold bluffing all in is pretty terrible on an A high board. Oh and just give up unless you think he can be on a total float.
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meeloche
Old 06-18-2008, 04:07 AM #9 (permalink)  
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 When you are 3 betting, think about what hands he's likely to call you with. If you don't know the answer I wouldn't 3 bet an in between hand like KQ. Keep your range polarized until you can get a read of hands he likes to play in 3 bet pots.



 
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Renton
Old 06-18-2008, 07:27 AM #10 (permalink)  
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 ugh, call pre about 95% without reads

bet less on flop, turn check fold but if you feel like he's weak bet like 1/3 of the pot. You are putting his whole stack at risk and only like 1/4 of yours.

in general you should never be going all in on the turn without any equity whatsoever.
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badgers
Old 06-18-2008, 12:06 PM #11 (permalink)  
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if you think he's calling the flop with 99-JJ isn't it better just to c/f flop? he's probs betting w/ only air/Ace so we get 6 outs for free vs. the part of his range that we can suck out on.
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Silly String
Old 06-18-2008, 02:33 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badgers
if you think he's calling the flop with 99-JJ isn't it better just to c/f flop?
Do you see how exploitable that is? And hero didn't put him on that range until after the flop call with his timing tell anyway.

Panther, If you think med-big pairs are a big part of his range, I bet turn again. That said, I find most villains don't call one street with the intention to float/fold on an Ace high board. They are much more likely to do it vs. a Q high dry flop.

I also think Meeloche's point about polarized betting is valuable advice here. Polarize your 3betting range instead of merging it until you know the villain's willingness to call 3bets and showdown light. I wouldn't 3bet a hand if all the most likely calling hands dominate my holding. I would much rather be in your spot with 87s than KQs.
Honestly, I think you didn't think much beyond preflop here and just wanted to pick up an easy $5. Fine to do under some circumstances, but I would rather do that with a hand that isn't so easily dominated or after I have a read on the opponent's raising & 3bet calling ranges.
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badgers
Old 06-18-2008, 03:37 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly String
Quote:
Originally Posted by badgers
if you think he's calling the flop with 99-JJ isn't it better just to c/f flop?
Do you see how exploitable that is?
it's only exploitable if villain has air a lot which he hasn't unless he like to call a lot of cbets. Sure, it's weak, but this is a gross flop for our hand and weak beat virutally none of his range. you don't have to cbet every flop after a 3bet, the 3bet in itself is profitable (some wise person told me that i think it was renton.)
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Silly String
Old 06-18-2008, 06:28 PM #14 (permalink)  
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This line (c/f flop) isn't played in a vacuum. Can you imagine trying to get paid off later with AK in this same spot? You have also begun to unmerge your range & play your hand face up.
We don't ever beat any of a normal TAG's 3bet calling range on this flop or for that matter any flop that isn't Q high, but our range still hits this flop pretty good, so I think we should turn your hand into a bluff and cbet. I would shut down if called.
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badgers
Old 06-18-2008, 09:34 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly String
This line (c/f flop) isn't played in a vacuum. Can you imagine trying to get paid off later with AK in this same spot? You have also begun to unmerge your range & play your hand face up.
We don't ever beat any of a normal TAG's 3bet calling range on this flop or for that matter any flop that isn't Q high, but our range still hits this flop pretty good, so I think we should turn your hand into a bluff and cbet. I would shut down if called.
We're c/cing some of our range too so it's not face up, I'm pretty sure c/c is std with KK here, if we expect opp to try and blow us off the hand when we check flop we can check AK too. Yeah this flop does hit our range but it hits opps range even harder and he has position. I don't get why you want to balance when it seems like a clearly unprofitable situation and villain is unknown.
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Silly String
Old 06-18-2008, 09:54 PM #16 (permalink)  
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I would disagree on 2 points: 1) I don't think this flop hits our opponents range harder than ours. I am much more likely to 3bet AQ-AJ then to call a 3bet with it. In position I am expecting a villain to call many more PP's and SC's than hands with an Ace.
2) I don't think cbetting this flop is unprofitable in a vacuum and certainly not when you add in metagame for getting action on later A high or K high flops.
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