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paulwright
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05-07-2008, 04:52 PM
Post subject: Rivered FH - shove or check it down?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: World Citizen
Posts: 130
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Villian was 33/10 over 100 hands - and a minor multi tabler. Button has been playing very loose - so any decent cards had good implied odds hence the 97s...
So I river a full house and after it was checked to me I hit the time button to figure out whether to shove, value bet (how much?) or check behind... thoughts?
I wonder if I thought too much here... but I couldnt put him on anything that would call a shove (except 33) unless he had me beat... Basically I think I screwed it up but would appreciate opinions...
FullTiltPoker Game #6312028503: Table Everest (6 max) - $0.50/$1 - Pot Limit Hold'em - 16:40:21 ET - 2008/05/06
Seat 1: SonyaRu ($96.50)
Seat 2: CptTomFranklin ($100)
Seat 3: utilities ($100), is sitting out
Seat 4: Wrighteo ($142.95)
Seat 5: xxxCOBRA SVTxxx ($87.60)
Seat 6: Robin Raszka ($118.10)
SonyaRu posts the small blind of $0.50
CptTomFranklin posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Wrighteo [7s 9s]
Wrighteo calls $1
xxxCOBRA SVTxxx folds
Robin Raszka calls $1
SonyaRu calls $0.50
CptTomFranklin checks
*** FLOP *** [3s Qs 9h]
SonyaRu bets $2
CptTomFranklin adds $1
CptTomFranklin folds
Wrighteo raises to $8
Robin Raszka folds
SonyaRu calls $6
*** TURN *** [3s Qs 9h] [7h]
SonyaRu checks
Wrighteo bets $14
SonyaRu calls $14
*** RIVER *** [3s Qs 9h 7h] [9c]
SonyaRu checks
Wrighteo has 15 seconds left to act
Wrighteo has requested TIME
Wrighteo checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Wrighteo shows [7s 9s] a full house, Nines full of Sevens
SonyaRu mucks
Wrighteo wins the pot ($45.60) with a full house, Nines full of Sevens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $48 | Rake $2.40
Board: [3s Qs 9h 7h 9c]
Villian's cards are hidden...
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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umm... I'm confused. WHYYY would you even think about checking on this river?
First things first though, don't limp open in EP. Raise PF if you want to play it, otherwise fold. It's not the greatest situation playing drawing hands OOP.
Flop - I don't mind your flop raise. It's not amazing, and it's not horrible. I can't tell if you're doing this for value or as a bluff. He's betting into several players, so I'd probably just call here if anything.
Turn - good bet
River - what range do you put him on here? He can have a missed flush, a set of 3's for 3's full of 9s, AQ/KQ type hand.
What hand that you DON'T beat do you think would just c/c then turn and check the river? All better hands than your two pair on the turn will c/r you a very high percentage of the time.
You really really can't check this river ever!
edit: A really wide range of hands will call your shove here, especially since your line can be a flush draw and the flush didn't get there. All Q's with strong kickers will be tempted to call here too, as well as trip 9's or 3's full.
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cjs55
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 171
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Wow. I'd say a $30 value bet on the end. Maybe a full pot value bet. A shove seems like too much of an overbet, but you might get put on a busted draw and called with KQ... anything is better than checking.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Hidden option C: make a regular bet and hope he calls it. Checking is terrible, and shoving is not great either on account of it being a huge overbet vs. an opponent who doesn't seem very likely to call such a thing. This is very easily a value bet siutation.
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paulwright
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: World Citizen
Posts: 130
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Thanks guys - in my mind I was thinking only shove - but I couldnt figure out what hand he calls with aside from 33. And I was worried about Q9 as 2 pair was the hand that he calls with all the way that beats me. AQ may have called - but I couldnt put him on that...
I got so caught up in figuring out what he had - and was so determined to shove - that I forgot to put in a value bet... you are both spot on - no reason not to value bet something...
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Value bet all day, every day, and maaaaaaaaybe check if your poker site freezes. But even still, I'd probably email support and tell them I meant to bet and demand them that money for their site freezing.
But seriously, what hand are you afraid of? Q's full of 9s is very unlikely due to preflop, given no raise. Q9 is the only one hand that beats us here that makes sense. You can't check behind in a spot where only one hand realistically beats us, but several hands will call a bet.
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paulwright
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: World Citizen
Posts: 130
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Exactly Griffey - the river check was the clue I missed... That eliminates Q9.
Not many hands call a shove - but a number call a vbet as Dale mentioned also...
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by paulwright
Exactly Griffey - the river check was the clue I missed... That eliminates Q9.
Not many hands call a shove - but a number call a vbet as Dale mentioned also...
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Even if he shoves into you, happily call this.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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paulwright
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: World Citizen
Posts: 130
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Actually I am really trying to work on my hand reading / assigning ranges - which is why this hand had been bothering me because I knew something shortwired in my brain... before I had tried to figure his hand out this would have been an auto-bet situation...
Galapagos - I would have insta called had he shoved - but is the thinking a bit off to say it means I should shove if I would have called his shove?
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by paulwright
Galapagos - I would have insta called had he shoved - but is the thinking a bit off to say it means I should shove if I would have called his shove?
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They are two separate actions, and much depends on the flow of the hand and the tendencies of your opponent. Here's the perfect "in a vaccuum" example: you're first to act and your only opponent is a super LAgg who always pounces on weakness. You have top pair top kicker and have bet the flop and turn, both of which he called; also there's a couple draws on the board - let's say flush and OESD. River comes, draws don't get there. In this situation shoving is bad because he's not calling with anything worse, but checking and calling a shove is good because you know he can't resist the big river bluff now that you've checked. So shoving <> calling a shove - as with everything else in poker, "it depends."
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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TBH I don't think you should be playing 100NL if your checking this river., unless you have some money to burn while your learning the game.
min bet&call raise/check&call/check line doesn't look like any strength at all by villain. Also I probably fold pre/raise and I don't particularly want to be showing this hand down with 97s if vill is half decent as I'd def note you'd limped it pre and raised bottom pair on the flop.
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paulwright
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: World Citizen
Posts: 130
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Thanks Muzzard - but I do just fine at 100NL - you probably shouldnt judge people based on one hand...
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paulwright
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: World Citizen
Posts: 130
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FWIW - villain had Q3c and had was being tricky with 2 pair until he got counterfeited on river...
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by paulwright
Thanks Muzzard - but I do just fine at 100NL - you probably shouldnt judge people based on one hand...
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lol ok, I edit my post a little, but still the same sentiment. I'm not trying to be douchey or anything. IMO this hand makes no sense. vbet river EZ 100%, you thought u were good on the flop or tried to steal, you value bet the turn as you though you were ahead, then checked a gin river. Whhhhaaaat?
As for 100NL great if your doing ok. But seriously your missing a ton of value by checking behind.
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paulwright
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: World Citizen
Posts: 130
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Agreed Muzz - thats why I posted this - I wanted a public flogging so I learn my lesson to not out think myself which I did here.
Learning to hand read better includes prioritizing my thought processes. In this hand by focusing on figuring out what he had and would call my shove with - I didnt think through properly what my action should be if he has a decent hand he may call a value bet with.
I got myself tied up in knots by over thinking when the answer was there hidden in plain sight...
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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In general you should spend less time figuring out specifically what he has, and more time figuring out what category of hand he likely has based on his actions up to that point. Some boards and actions will give away some very specific information, but a lot of times all that need concern you is that he has a general type of hand (like one pair or a weak draw) that is consistent with his actions (weak bet then call a raise on the flop; check-call the turn; check the river). It's possible that this is some crazy slowplay, but worry about that when he raises you. Generally his actions translate to weakness, and your hand has great strength - so make a bet he can call if he has what the large part of his range consists of. Which to me is a pair of queens any kicker, maybe A9 or K9.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Muzzard
and I don't particularly want to be showing this hand down with 97s if vill is half decent as I'd def note you'd limped it pre and raised bottom pair on the flop.
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He actually raised middle pair + flush draw on the flop. Which is completely standard, especially with a weak-ass bet like villain's. The limp pre is not so great though, I'd prefer to raise or fold. But I don't think taking this to showdown gives that much away. ...Unless of course hero checks the river with it like a vag. (Sorry, hero!)
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paulwright
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: World Citizen
Posts: 130
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LOL!
Dont get too hung up on the limp pre - I was trying to play as many pots as possible with the button (who folded here). It was the right play for the table conditions trust me.
As for the the weak bet by villain - it did prompt my raise trying to take it down right there as he was playing kinda predictable.
As for check on the end - I get the message and I will leave my vag at home next time... 
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dalecooper
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Muzzard
and I don't particularly want to be showing this hand down with 97s if vill is half decent as I'd def note you'd limped it pre and raised bottom pair on the flop.
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He actually raised middle pair + flush draw on the flop. Which is completely standard, especially with a weak-ass bet like villain's. The limp pre is not so great though, I'd prefer to raise or fold. But I don't think taking this to showdown gives that much away. ...Unless of course hero checks the river with it like a vag. (Sorry, hero!) |
Sorry I didn't see the flush and thought it was bottom pair at the time of post. Standard flop raise yeah. So I fucked up and I don't mid the showdown even if we didn't hit FH
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paulwright
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: World Citizen
Posts: 130
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Speaking of vag - the more I have thought about it - it does remind me of Jennifer Tilly v Patrick Antonius on PAD.
Patrick's - "well I cant beat that" when she turned over the boat just cracked me up...
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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wtf at checking behind here?
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by paulwright
Galapagos - I would have insta called had he shoved - but is the thinking a bit off to say it means I should shove if I would have called his shove?
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If you think he's going to call a shove then by all means shove. But by the way he's playing his hand it looks unlikely. Just bet the most you think he can call.
Can you see how backwards your logic is though? You say you'd gladly call a shove but you're afraid of what he will call with if you shove? Just keep betting and they'll keep calling with the dumbest stuff. You can't leave it up to these weak-passive stations to put money in the pot though.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Pythonic
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: In S-mart Swallowing Your Soul!
Posts: 586
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Q9 would reraise flop IMO. Have to value bet the river here.
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Never bet on a white man in the heavyweight division!
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pythonic
Q9 would reraise flop IMO.
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So would Q3 usually - this is quite possibly a special ed poker player. Anyway I think the point stands in general.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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this check is seriously on par with JTilly's as far and away the worst ive ever seen, wtf. how do you beat 100nl?
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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edit misread hh
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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y wouldn t he call with a Q when all the big draws missed
edit : oops posted without reading the 47328904 replies, sry for the overkill
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Deanglow
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lol
Posts: 2,443
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Quote:
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this check is seriously on par with JTilly's as far and away the worst ive ever seen, wtf. how do you beat 100nl?
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Seriously paulwright, move down to $25NL no matter what your bankroll is. Read a lot of threads and strategy here and on other sites, in books, etc. You don't understand poker.
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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oh shit lol i thought he was sonyaru when i first replied... WTFFFFFF at the river check??
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Deanglow
Quote:
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this check is seriously on par with JTilly's as far and away the worst ive ever seen, wtf. how do you beat 100nl?
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Seriously paulwright, move down to $25NL no matter what your bankroll is. Read a lot of threads and strategy here and on other sites, in books, etc. You don't understand poker. |
Not that I totally disagree but - we're piling on a little here, guys. I think the point has probably been made.
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