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Doublethe7
Old 02-04-2007, 09:00 AM     Post subject: River Play #1 (permalink)  
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Villain is loose preflop and likes to chase some draws. We played about a hour and crushed our heads a couple of times.
Given the way i played it, villain is probably aware that i'm holding a strong hand.

How is my River Bet? Do you call the push?

We Are Marshall 14720136-15931 Holdem No Limit $0.50/$1
Hand Start.
Seat 1 : villain1 has $107.25
Seat 3 : villain2 has $19.96
Seat 4 : villain3 has $104.25
Seat 5 : hero has $143.50
Seat 6 : villain4 has $129.22
villain1 is the dealer.
villain2 posted small blind.
villain3 has 10 seconds to respond.
villain3 refused to post big blind.
hero posted big blind.
Game [15931] started with 4 players.
Dealing Hole Cards.
Seat 5 : hero has 8s Jh
villain4 called $1
villain1 folded.
villain2 called $0.50
hero checked.
Dealing flop.
Board cards [9d Tc 7h]
villain2 checked.
hero checked.
villain4 bet $3
villain2 folded.
hero called $3 and raised $6
villain4 called $6
Dealing turn.
Board cards [9d Tc 7h 5c]
It's your turn.
hero has 10 seconds to respond.
hero bet $17
villain4 called $17
Dealing river.
Board cards [9d Tc 7h 5c Qc]
hero bet $22
villain4 called $22 and raised $80.22 and is All-in
hero?

Thanks,
Double
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pokerroomace
Old 02-04-2007, 06:41 PM #2 (permalink)  
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ooo. tough.

i hate the way you played on the flop. that min checkraise is horrible IMO. if you're going to raise. raise it up properly. and i don't even like the checkraise because it shows too much strength IMO and just kills off all your action. i prefer betting the flop or just check calling.

on the river it's quite hard to decide what to do. does he have the flush? JK? maybe even a loose player with a set.
i don't know what i'd do on the river. what hand do you actually beat? i don't think 2 pair or a set make that river raise. a flush would make that river bet and maybe JK (since he can be quite sure you don't have the flush).
also, i prefer a bigger river bet by you. i think most of the time you have him beat here and you can still get a call by betting a bit more. but this is only a difference of a few dollars and since he raised allin it didn't actually make a difference.

i think it all depends on what sort of player your opponent is. you say your opponent is loose pf and chases draws. because of this i would probably call.
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yorib
Old 02-04-2007, 08:13 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Those min preflop raises are horrible they show so much strentgh with a lot left to be bet.

This is exactly how A8c/9c7c/JhKh would play the hand. I'd think a set or two pair would reraise elsewhere and call for a cheap show down. Any other hand would give up on the turn.

I'd have to have a read that villian bluffs a lot for me to make that call. Yeah, the main flush didn't get there, but he'd have to think that's what you were chasing.

I'd fold, if I called, I know I was making a mistake.
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Miffed22001
Old 02-04-2007, 09:59 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 looks like he had an 8 on the turn, so him having 8xc isnt wholly unlikely. But i think i call anyhow, and i know im a station.
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Doublethe7
Old 02-05-2007, 07:00 AM #5 (permalink)  
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I'm no big fan of the min-checkraise either, but in this case i'm happy with it. The reasoning: if he's got nothing he would fold, but i wouldnt have got any money out of him anyway. If he's got some kind of remote draw he'll call and i can get in an bigger bet on turn - i want him to chase his draw on turn, which worked fine.

After turn i was pretty sure he has 8x, probably 8T or a flopped set. From my point of view, his river push could be a weired played set, a busted draw or the backdoor flush - so i called. This was probably my biggest mistake in this hand.

He ended up having 8c3c, so miffed was right
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Miffed22001
Old 02-05-2007, 09:19 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 i should know better and fold here on the river, but to be honest i still dont do it.
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Warpe
Old 02-05-2007, 02:41 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doublethe7
I'm no big fan of the min-checkraise either, but in this case i'm happy with it. The reasoning: if he's got nothing he would fold, but i wouldnt have got any money out of him anyway.
Why are we happy with giving him odds to chase?



 
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griffey24
Old 02-05-2007, 02:46 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doublethe7
I'm no big fan of the min-checkraise either, but in this case i'm happy with it. The reasoning: if he's got nothing he would fold, but i wouldnt have got any money out of him anyway. If he's got some kind of remote draw he'll call and i can get in an bigger bet on turn - i want him to chase his draw on turn, which worked fine.
Like the rest of the posts, I'm also not a fan of this check-raise. I agree you get an extra $3 out of someone who has nothing. But if you think a player has nothing, then you should just flat call, and check-raise the turn harder. Also, if villain has nothing, he won't call your min-checkraise. But if villain has something, he would call a bigger check-raise anyhow.

After your strong turn bet, and villain's flat call, I think its clear that villain was drawing to something. I might even check-call this river, to get a bet out of the missed OESD. I doubt any marginal hand would call a third barrel on the river. Maybe a set or two pair would call here, but I think we would have heard from those hands on previous streets.
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jackvance
Old 02-05-2007, 02:54 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 Where is there a check minraise? I see this:

flop pot= $3, villain bet $3, hero raises to $9, villain calls
turn pot= $21, hero bets $17, villain calls
river pot= $55, hero bets $22, villain shoves for his remaining $102.
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Doublethe7
Old 02-05-2007, 04:26 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doublethe7
I'm no big fan of the min-checkraise either, but in this case i'm happy with it. The reasoning: if he's got nothing he would fold, but i wouldnt have got any money out of him anyway.
Why are we happy with giving him odds to chase?
i knew he had the odds to call with a good draw on the flop. what i was trying to say is, that wanted to build the pot (and allowing him to draw cheap with the right odds on flop) to set him up for a bigger mistake on turn when chasing his draw against a big turn bet - i'm not saying this is the best way to play that hand, that was just what i was thinking while playing.

ironic end of the story is, i gave him good implied odds by calling his river push

btw, jackvance is right - it wasn't the absolute minimum raise, but it was'nt a big rerais either.
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griffey24
Old 02-05-2007, 04:59 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackvance
Where is there a check minraise? I see this:
Sorry, I misread and thought it was a check raise to 6, and not 6 MORE.

in any event. Given that you check raised, the amount you check raised I think is good.

Though I still think it shows a lot of strength, and would scare off a lot of mediocre hands that might call a flop and turn lead out.

And I'm like miffed on the river. I know I should fold, but my curiosity to satisfy my interest of "what in the world just happened here??" takes over. big leak I'm sure.. I have to work on that.

I still think a check call on the river could be good, and would make money off missed draws, and avoids being raised hard by hands that beat us. Does nobody check-call here?
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Warpe
Old 02-05-2007, 05:02 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackvance
Where is there a check minraise? I see this:
Sorry, I misread and thought it was a check raise to 6, and not 6 MORE.
Yeah, made the same mistake. Damn unconverted HHs



 
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storm75m
Old 02-05-2007, 05:13 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
I still think a check call on the river could be good, and would make money off missed draws, and avoids being raised hard by hands that beat us. Does nobody check-call here?
Yes, check call the river for sure. I know staying aggressive is important, but so is controlling the pot size.
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Miffed22001
Old 02-05-2007, 08:12 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 when opp calls turn and pushes river its a 50/50 call IMO. Its a nice spot to bluff against a flopped monster and a good spot to get paid off on a backdoor flush
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