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Regarding 4-betting AK.

  
 
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Ravageur
Old 11-06-2006, 09:39 AM     Post subject: Regarding 4-betting AK. #1 (permalink)  
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Villain is 25/20 over 100 hands or so. He's reraising lots etc.. No one has 4-bet him yet.

FullTiltPoker Game #1200722165: Table Cranwood (6 max) - $2/$4 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:22:21 ET - 2006/11/05
Seat 1: RaisetheRiver ($388.70)
Seat 2: Ravageur ($424.30)
Seat 3: ACTIONFREAK ($409.20)
Seat 4: CoachTooz ($498.20)
Seat 5: TonyBliar ($400)
Seat 6: SiLi27 ($478.70)
SiLi27 posts the small blind of $2
RaisetheRiver posts the big blind of $4
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ravageur [Kh Ah]
Ravageur raises to $14
ACTIONFREAK folds
CoachTooz folds
TonyBliar has 15 seconds left to act
TonyBliar raises to $48
SiLi27 folds
RaisetheRiver folds
Ravageur raises to $156
TonyBliar has 15 seconds left to act
TonyBliar calls $108
*** FLOP *** [6c 3h 2c]
Ravageur has 15 seconds left to act
Ravageur bets $268.30, and is all in

I'm not trying to suggest I played this hand optimally, but in reading the posts below about what to do with AK preflop, this hand came to mind because it exposes a sticky situation with a 4-bet AK. With the money in the pot, there's no way I'm check folding this flop when I have outs (running straight and flush cards as well as hopefully 6 clear outs). There's also the equity involved if villain is calling here with say QQ, JJ, 10s, 9s here. If I do get called (And villain doesn't have an easy call with these hands) I should still have say 22% equity if I'm not up against KK, AA... And lastly I'm making villain fold AK here 100% of the time.

So...I think this play is not entire spewage, though others will certainly disagree. Any critics/thoughts welcome.
Family Cruise IMO
 
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Genitruc
Old 11-06-2006, 09:52 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 4bet-call is just so weird preflop w 100 BB stacks
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Renton
Old 11-06-2006, 11:12 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 this play works so much better when you are threebet by the blinds and have position, because then you can see a turncard. Also, is it really -EV to checkfold the flop? Im not saying you should, just asking. Most of the ev from the fourbet came from the times he folds preflop right?
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Ravageur
Old 11-06-2006, 04:42 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
this play works so much better when you are threebet by the blinds and have position, because then you can see a turncard. Also, is it really -EV to checkfold the flop? Im not saying you should, just asking. Most of the ev from the fourbet came from the times he folds preflop right?
Yah true, but if he's ever folding to my push here (which he shouldn't if he called the 4-bet but there's definitely still a chance he will) then if he doesn't have KK or AA I think pushing is my best option.
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Robert
Old 11-06-2006, 05:42 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Ravageur,

Is your image that you are raising a lot from UTG? If villian is a solid aggro player, I doubt he'll reraise a UTG raise from a semingly solid player light. TBH, I like a fold here, because he's reraising an UTG raise. Things change entirely if you raised from the CO - or if villian is just a aggro retard.
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Ravageur
Old 11-06-2006, 07:04 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert
Ravageur,

Is your image that you are raising a lot from UTG? If villian is a solid aggro player, I doubt he'll reraise a UTG raise from a semingly solid player light. TBH, I like a fold here, because he's reraising an UTG raise. Things change entirely if you raised from the CO - or if villian is just a aggro retard.
I see your point, but note villain's stats of 25/20. The 20 in particular. He's 3-popping a ton of hands that I'm racing with (and that I can get him off of if I outplay him) and even some hands that I am dominating (AQs, AQo...maybe maybe AJs) although those hands are ruled out when he smooth calls the 4-bet). I think a fold against this villain is really weak, and I think a smooth call is gross considering I'm OOP with a crappy hand on a missed flop. Honestly I think a 4-bet is the only good agressive play. But then, what do we do when he SMOOTH calls of all things??? Makes for an interesting hand.
Family Cruise IMO
 
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Ravageur
Old 11-06-2006, 07:05 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Oh and yes my raising range UTG is relatively wide. Any pair, KQo and up (A10s and up) and random suited gappers/connectors.
Family Cruise IMO
 
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zenbitz
Old 11-06-2006, 07:40 PM #8 (permalink)  
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far be it from me to get inside the head of a 400NL player... but the only hand that it makes sense to call your PF 4 bet with is KK.

When you 4-bet, he has to put you on AK/KK/AA. He figures that he's going to double up AA no matter what happens, but figures he might get away if an A flops.
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elipsesjeff
Old 11-06-2006, 08:36 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zenbitz
far be it from me to get inside the head of a 400NL player... but the only hand that it makes sense to call your PF 4 bet with is KK.

When you 4-bet, he has to put you on AK/KK/AA. He figures that he's going to double up AA no matter what happens, but figures he might get away if an A flops.
You could throw in TT-QQ as well if villain is a thinking player and knows Hero might start playing back at him.


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Ravageur
Old 11-06-2006, 11:04 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by zenbitz
far be it from me to get inside the head of a 400NL player... but the only hand that it makes sense to call your PF 4 bet with is KK.

When you 4-bet, he has to put you on AK/KK/AA. He figures that he's going to double up AA no matter what happens, but figures he might get away if an A flops.
You could throw in TT-QQ as well if villain is a thinking player and knows Hero might start playing back at him.
KK/AA are only a small part of his range here IMO. When I've comitted so much preflop (nearly half our stacks), I'm rarely folding to a push . I also don't think villain is the type to get tricky with big hands, and I haven't seen him do anything of the sort so far. I think QQ, JJ, 10s and AK are the most likely holdings of someone with villain's profile in this spot.
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Chopper
Old 11-07-2006, 01:08 AM #11 (permalink)  
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i dont play your limits, but i can only assume you throw AA and KK out when he calls pf? with AA/KK, he pushes pf, right? so, you are only worried about AX, which you have dominated, or possibly made hands down to TT?

would he bluff at THAT flop, in position i assume so. sounds like the money was going in anyway, how poor is it to check-call his push just to make him keep pushing you around in the future?

i know it is better to be the aggressor, but villain is aggressive already. why not look weak and keep him around for more?

for the record, i am likely to push first here, too, but wanted to throw out another possibility other than, "i agree w/ poster here."
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Ravageur
Old 11-07-2006, 04:50 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
i dont play your limits, but i can only assume you throw AA and KK out when he calls pf? with AA/KK, he pushes pf, right? so, you are only worried about AX, which you have dominated, or possibly made hands down to TT?

would he bluff at THAT flop, in position i assume so. sounds like the money was going in anyway, how poor is it to check-call his push just to make him keep pushing you around in the future?

i know it is better to be the aggressor, but villain is aggressive already. why not look weak and keep him around for more?

for the record, i am likely to push first here, too, but wanted to throw out another possibility other than, "i agree w/ poster here."
I have Ace high here, so not really a reason to keep him around for more.

If I check it' s because I'm going to fold if he pushes. I push this flop only because as well as outs, I have a small % of fold equity involved as well (I hope). For example in this hand villain tanked and folded. I have a strong suspicion he folded JJ, which is good for me :P
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griffey24
Old 11-07-2006, 02:27 PM     Post subject: Push? #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
i dont play your limits, but i can only assume you throw AA and KK out when he calls pf? with AA/KK, he pushes pf, right? so, you are only worried about AX, which you have dominated, or possibly made hands down to TT?

would he bluff at THAT flop, in position i assume so. sounds like the money was going in anyway, how poor is it to check-call his push just to make him keep pushing you around in the future?

i know it is better to be the aggressor, but villain is aggressive already. why not look weak and keep him around for more?

for the record, i am likely to push first here, too, but wanted to throw out another possibility other than, "i agree w/ poster here."
I think AA/KK could possibly smooth call the 4-bet in position here preflop. If villian pushes in this spot, it screams of a strong overpair. If villian smooth calls, they get more money out of Jacks/Queens betting into them on the flop. Or in this case, AK pushing into them?
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Chopper
Old 11-07-2006, 02:56 PM #14 (permalink)  
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true, but if the villain calls here after your flop push, he HAS to have a pair of some kind, right? no way you would want that. arent you trying to push AQ/AK off the hand. i see JJ call this a lot, especially if he is donkish. that makes you a 70/30 DOG if he doesnt have a club. he would be right if he could call this one.

now i drop JJ here, but thats me...a nit. but he, by his numbers, isnt. if i have JJ, i see your push as AA, KK, QQ, TT, JJ, club draw, AK o and s, maybe AQ, KQ. something with a flush draw and overs at a minimum. i, again, fold. i know i am WAY BEHIND to AA, KK, QQ, and dont think you are 3 betting pf and pushing oop the flop with KQ or other stuff to buy a pot...other than AcKc.

the way i see it, i beat 1 of the four hands i give you credit for, and fold out. but i dont think most aggros are capable of these reads...they see the overpair and call immediately.

i think he was unpaired and missed the flop. i doubt JJ. do you know what he had?
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Chopper
Old 11-07-2006, 03:04 PM     Post subject: Re: Push? #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
I think AA/KK could possibly smooth call the 4-bet in position here preflop. If villian pushes in this spot, it screams of a strong overpair. If villian smooth calls, they get more money out of Jacks/Queens betting into them on the flop. Or in this case, AK pushing into them?
do you think someone THIS aggressive pf, can call a 3bet with AA/KK? KK, maybe, not AA. if he can temper back his desire to shove pf here, he is a rare one. he only plays 25% of hands, and raises 20% before the flop...as poster said, reraises alot.

if he gets this involved pf, he wont slow down with AA-JJ. he wants the initiative, and will take his chances against AA by pushing before you see any cards. i'm not saying i am right here, but it would be rare, in my experience, to see him just call the 3bet with better than TT/AJ.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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