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griffey24
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05-12-2007, 12:28 AM
Post subject: re-raised pot, to second barrel or not to second barrel?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Well as you'll see from this hand, I decided not to second barrel. I'm not sure how much I like my check though, what do you think?
I'm always pretty confused in these spots.
Villain is reasonably tight, only running at 21/12/1.3 over 500 hands.
I haven't had many real confrontations with him, but he's on a few of my tables and I haven't seen him get out of line or make any plays that are too fishy.
I have been playing pretty taggish, 21/16 and haven't gotten out of line on any of the tables I'm on with him. I have shown down strong hands so far.
Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter
Stack sizes:
UTG: $189.63
UTG+1: $186
CO: $191
Button: $272
SB: $155
Hero: $464.75
Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with  
UTG raises to $8, 4 folds, Hero raises to $24, UTG calls.
Flop:    ($49, 2 players)
Hero bets $38, UTG calls.
Turn:  ($125, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $75, Hero ??
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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15outs
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 17
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lead the turn $70-90, fold to a raise IMO
you're check basically let's him know you don't have an A i would think
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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ewwwww.
But i cant help but call here and call river (yeah i know you have almost zero left but all the hands you beat are folding to a push)
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
ewwwww.
But i cant help but call here and call river (yeah i know you have almost zero left but all the hands you beat are folding to a push)
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Yah I thought about this to some degree. This is kind of why I didn't like pushing that much. I figured a push was only gonna get called by hands that beat me. (maybe I manage to fold out KK)
So is check calling/pushing > pushing?
So how bad is check fold here?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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No reason to fold
Also no reason to bet river... it s not like he ll fold KK or call w JJ...
if he sucked out w A10 GG but I'd doubt it. Ace is a great turn card for your hand (means less likely he flat-called AA preflop).
It's just 2 bad you're not deep enough to CR him off of KK.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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btw I think playing scared of the ace is a great way to play this hand
He's apparently solid so there's absolutely no reason he got the the turn with A high.
Maybe he's dumb enough to try to "bluff" you off of your hand with 99 or something.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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The Ace was actually one of your better turn cards.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
The Ace was actually one of your better turn cards.
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Ok so given that its one of the better cards. Is it better to push here, and rep AK to fold out KK, or check and get money in from worse hands?
I'd imagine after a turn call his range is most likely 1010+. So its probably 50/50 between JJ and getting money off that hand or KK and trying to fold KK.
fwiw, judging by the posts so far, I completely butchered this hand, which is why I'm trying to figure out the best line.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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If you think he ever flat-calls the flop with KK then pushing the turn is good.
This seems unlikey to me though. I think a normal villain usually turns up with a weaker PP or a nut hand (set or AA slowplayed) so I'd be more likely to check and let him bluff the ace.
If he checks behind there may actually be value in betting a rag river.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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The_Bankroll
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Athens, GA
Posts: 370
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I like leading the turn, you probably take it down right here. personally, I rather just try to end it here than be faced w/ a tough decision like this one. fold to a raise on the turn.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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It's hard to see how you are beat here, and he doesn't have much left. I guess you can just put him all-in and thank him for donking off $75 if he folds. If you're beat, oh well.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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i like leading or check folding but hate check calling against this guy
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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I like leading turn. No many Ax holdings can call flop. your c/b could easily be an AK thats now ahead
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Thanks for all the replies guys. Seems like an overwhelming number of responses saying I'm most likely ahead here on the turn and to lead out.
Like I said I butchered this hand, and I actually check folded this turn. Right after I did that.... I felt like i had folded the best hand.. hence posting it here!
I think leading the turn and folding to a raise for sure the best play.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
The Ace was actually one of your better turn cards.
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lol ???? not
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
The Ace was actually one of your better turn cards.
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lol ???? not |
huh?
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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ace was not one of the better turn cards, a 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q are all way better. hell i would rather the card be another T than A
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
It's hard to see how you are beat here...
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except by all the hands that beat you? 22/44/TT/KK/AA/AK. Any one of these hands could choose to not raise the flop or 4-bet preflop.
I agree his range is much wider than the above, but I don't think Hero is ahead here more than 1/2 the time.
But I have no idea how to play the turn here. c/c, c/f, c/r, b/f all seem bad without a more solid read.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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an ace is one of ur worst turns because u lose value from JJ/underpairs which is the only hands u r ahead of. (maybe JTs, T9s)
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
an ace is one of ur worst turns because u lose value from JJ/underpairs which is the only hands u r ahead of. (maybe JTs, T9s)
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so if he was a little more agressive we c/c right?
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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i dont think we should ever check call unless we are against a complete maniac
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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yea like sauce said, the ace isnt really hurting our range vs theirs, but it takes away all the value we were planning on getting vs most ppl
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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I don't get it. The Ace basically makes betting for value pointless yet we still are sure we have the best hand a lot of the time. Also it's quite likely he thinks that we are scared of this card.
I don't see how else we are going to extract more value?
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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sometimes u just cant, just gotta hope to check it down
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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K so I must be over estimating peoples bluffing frequencies here.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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k obv agree it fks up getting value
i was just saying to OP it's a "good" card in the sense that it's unlikely to give villain the best hand if he didn't already have it on the flop
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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