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re-learning to fold... call these rivers?

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griffey24

02-21-2007, 04:11 AM Post subject: re-learning to fold... call these rivers?

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Hey guys,

I'm amidst one of my worst downswings ever (18 buy-ins.. sigh...) and am trying to take things back to basics. Where basics is.. learning how to fold again. I am stacking off waaaaaay too much lately in marginal spots, and its killing me.

Hand 1

-villain is pretty passive 17/4/1.25
-My read was that I was likely ahead on the flop, but anyone calling with a 10 could quite likely have the J as well.. so I went into check call mode to keep the pot under control
-passive villain firing on both the turn and river... river fold?

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $34.50
Hero: $203.64
CO: $112.75
Button: $52
SB: $99
BB: $129.94

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with

UTG folds, Hero raises to $3, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop:

($9.5, 3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $7.5, CO calls, BB folds.

Turn:

($24.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $14, Hero calls.

River:

($52.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $27, Hero ??

Hand 2:

-villain is kind of fishy 46/15/1.71
-don't go broke in an unraised pot? if it means anything... villain insta-pushes all in on the river
-blah.. I hate two pair

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $108.87
UTG+1: $241.34
CO: $118.87
Button: $88.98
SB: $24.39
Hero: $97

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with

3 folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero checks.

Flop:

($3, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.75, Button calls, SB folds.

Turn:

($8.5, 2 players)
Hero bets $6.5, Button raises to $13, Hero calls

River:

($34.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button is all-in $72.23, Hero ??

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StageWhisper

02-21-2007, 06:17 AM

#2 (permalink)

Join Date: Nov 2006

Location: WA

Posts: 90

I'm still fairly new to NL 6max, but I'm going to start commenting on hands more so I can see how my reviews stack against other players here. So take it with a grain of salt.

Hand 1: I understand trying to control the pot, but I'd take this line against a laggier villain. Leading out again on the turn here will give you a clearer picture of where you are at, no?

Hand 2: Easy river fold for me. I'm having a hard time figuring out what we beat here, and the pot isn't worth finding out.

griffey24

02-21-2007, 11:59 AM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Quote:

Originally Posted by StageWhisper

Hand 1 - In general I check a lot of turns with only one pair hands. It keeps the pot under control, and it lets draws bluff on the turn/river. But I agree, i think both of these things would be better of saved for a more aggressive opponent.

Hand 2 - yah, if he wasn't such a fish a fold would be a lot easier. But even still, the only hands i'm really beating are overplayed Kings.. K10, KJ's, and Q8.

There needs to be some sort of pain induced punishment for every bad call I think (physical pain, not the pain of losing some money). That would teach me to fold I think!

jackvance

02-21-2007, 03:01 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 2,910

jackvance is an unknown quantity at this point

First one is meh cuz he's only betting half pot, I wouldn't fold there either.. second hand is insta-muck

Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity

gabe

02-21-2007, 04:17 PM

#5 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: trying to live

Posts: 7,964

gabe is an unknown quantity at this point

play the first one faster

griffey24

02-21-2007, 06:07 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

play the first one faster

By faster you mean, lead the turn i'm assuming? c/r the turn?

Suppose I lead the turn $17ish, and get raised to 37-40, then what? Fold, since he's a passive villain?

I can't explain why, but I had a bad feeling about this hand with this particular villain, and wanted a cheap showdown. I don't normally play AA this passively.

zenbitz

02-21-2007, 06:56 PM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 2,911

First one, I think just lead-lead-lead, or maybe check river if you don't think he'll call down unless he beats TP. Your hand is too good to turn into a bluff catcher.

Hand 2, I think you want to bet/fold the river, like 1/2 pot. He could easily have no more than TP here... of course, he could also easily have a straight or flush. I think you have to fold river as played.

sauce123

02-21-2007, 07:44 PM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2007

Location: Dizzy

Posts: 2,405

Hand 1 is a mess I think. First problem is that you should raise to 4 utg with AA, why offer better set odds and encourage connectors to hop on.

Ok... flop is fine. You have to bet this turn tho versus a 17/4. Bet/folding this turn is actually ur best line imo. I know its ugly but calling two bets oop vs a nit is a recipe for disaster. If villain calls turn you can probably Vbet river again for 1/2 pot and/or C/C river if he has shown a tendency to bluff missed draws. As played I fold river... but I absolutely hate to do it and calling definitely isnt too terrible either given ur odds.

Hand 2- you played this well, just its time to fold river. Again you have to be good sooooo often here to call, so unless you have a read on villain making strange river shove bluffs (which happens sometimes with 40/15s) or if hes terrible enough to do this with AK, then you can maaaybe find a call, but barring strange circumstances I instamuck

I got more flava than fruitstripe gum

griffey24

02-21-2007, 09:21 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

Hand 1 is a mess I think. First problem is that you should raise to 4 utg with AA, why offer better set odds and encourage connectors to hop on.

Thanks for the replies guys.

Sauce - in response to your "raise size" comment, I have been mixing this up lately. Recently I have been opening from EP for around 3x.. and in LP for about 4x.

I have found the tables on interpoker to be VERY nitty lately.. (running at around 20-24/10) and I haven't been getting much action at all when raising to 4. Also I don't mind raising to 3 from EP, cause I dont necessarily wanna create a monster pot OOP.

THough I do agree, that I also don't want a multi-way pot with aces OOP. If I felt that the table was playing loose enough, I would for sure open for 4. It depends on the table really.

does no one else raise less than 4x the blinds from EP, or any position?

jackvance

02-21-2007, 09:32 PM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 2,910

If they fold often I start raising more hands. My raises are always 4BB-5BB..

Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity

bbqsquirrel

02-21-2007, 09:35 PM

#11 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2006

Location: Vancouver, Canada

Posts: 260

Hand 1 I call. You induced his bets by showing weakness, and you better stand up for yourself.

Hand 2 easy fold -- you're beaten by a lot of hands.

BBQSquirrel's poker blog

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bigspenda73

02-21-2007, 10:05 PM

#12 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,546

bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

I go for a turn c/r in hand 1. Players just love betting once you've given up the lead. I find a player who likes to do this and exploit it....Big Time.

Thee One

02-21-2007, 10:14 PM

#13 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Dec 2005

Posts: 185

Hand 1: Bet at least 4 pre and raise that turn. As played, I probably fold the river, but I'm not sure you're beat. Your hand doesn't look as strong as it is/was on the turn. The river card is just a perfect card to push you off the hand so I'm 50/50 on a bluff/made flush.

Hand 2: Re-Raise the turn, fold to a push. Villain has KT here often or something else as fishy. The river smells like a bluff, I doubt he hit the flush draw after he woke up on the turn and I'm especially doubtful after he insta-pushed the river. He's scared you'll call to a smaller bet.

I should add that I'm a little worried about JT (the fishy nuts!) on the turn, but if he pushes to the re-raise on the turn I can lay it down. On the river I discount JT because I doubt a straight is pushing on a board with a completed flush.

Galapogos

02-21-2007, 11:14 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: The Loser's Lounge

Posts: 2,323

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffey24

Sauce - in response to your "raise size" comment, I have been mixing this up lately. Recently I have been opening from EP for around 3x.. and in LP for about 4x.

You've got that backwards. And if you're experimenting with different bet sizing I think you be should be going between 4xBB and 5xBB. 5xBB in EP and 4xBB in LP. People still call too much at 100NL to be using 3xBB preflop raises.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.

jackvance

02-22-2007, 04:44 PM

#15 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 2,910

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thee One

Then you have to call since he bets half pot, so you only need to win 25% of the time to break even.

Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity

griffey24

02-22-2007, 05:06 PM

#16 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffey24

Sauce - in response to your "raise size" comment, I have been mixing this up lately. Recently I have been opening from EP for around 3x.. and in LP for about 4x.

Hmm.. maybe I'm confused. I figured that since EP raises get MORE respect, that if you are already getting little action, a smaller raise would induce some more calls (hence the 3x instead of 4x). If I raised to 5x in EP, i would DEFINITELY get no callers at a tight table.

I do agree with jackvance, that raising more often would be the best way to get more action.

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re-learning to fold... call these rivers?

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